The golden compass

[bakura_fan]

my dad just sent this to my email. thought I'd share it with you all. Quite disturbing.
http://snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp

[Nate]

*shrug* I'll still go see the movie, though I'll probably avoid the books.

[rocklobster]

The Da Vinci Code's success has made Hollywood more daring. Where's a thunderbolt when we need one?

[AsianBlossom]

Ah, yes!!! I was worried that this was a "pro-Compass" thread and would have to go post stuff like that warning everyone this was dangerous. Didn't realize it reached Snopes, though.

Thanks for posting this...best to unmask the lie early.

[Tenshi no Ai]

To me, them movie trailer just looked like a really good fantasy and that's how I see it as. The whole 'dumb kids' thing is well... do you REALLY think many kids will even get the message? Besides, there's countless movies that involve a corrupt authority who must be stopped, so I dunno how this can really be seen as 'killing the god of the series'. Guess I'll go and see for myself.

I think if anything, the author makes me the most mad. I mean, people write books with Christian themes like CS Lewis, many have pretty much neutral themes (as far as religion goes) like Rowling, Japanese have Christian themes but fantasize it greatly, being not their culture, but for this guy to go as far as to DISS it?? I mean, don't think even Da Vinci Code did that. Then again, what's a worse message? "Christianity is fake" or Chrisitianity is BAD BAD BAAAAAAD!!!" Once again, I'd have to see it for myself... Many people are just greatly understood, I know :/

[Nate]

The whole 'dumb kids' thing is well... do you REALLY think many kids will even get the message?

The Catholic League understands that, and admits the anti-religious tones have been "watered down" from the books. What they're worried about is parents will take kids to see the movies, not see anything too offensive, and then perhaps buy them the books.

Since Al Kahn says "Kids don't read," I don't know how much of a problem that is. *joking*

I agree with you on the movie looking like good fantasy, hence why I am going to go see it. Polar bears in battle armor!

I mean, people write books with Christian themes like CS Lewis, many have pretty much neutral themes (as far as religion goes) like Rowling, Japanese have Christian themes but fantasize it greatly, being not their culture, but for this guy to go as far as to DISS it??

People write about what they know. This guy obviously dislikes religion greatly, it wouldn't make sense for him to write about it in a positive light, would it? I mean, would you expect Lewis to write a book in which Christianity was portrayed as a demonic infant-killing religion? Probably not, because he was a Christian.

People are always going to express their views in what they create. I don't see any reason to bash him for writing his opinion.

I mean, don't think even Da Vinci Code did that. Then again, what's a worse message? "Christianity is fake" or Chrisitianity is BAD BAD BAAAAAAD!!!"

The two sentiments are usually the same, since people who believe Christianity is bad do it because they think it's fake. On the other hand, not everyone who believes Christianity is a lie believes it's bad, they just have the attitude of "Keep it to yourself and don't try and force your views on me and I'll leave you alone."

[bakura_fan]

Well, I'm not sure about seeing this. My only fear is that, the first movie will be fine, BUT, if the next two are made into movies...how will that be? I posted this so people could read it and make the decision for themselves. ^_^ Not trying to say "Don't see this movie" just stating the author's purpose so that people who don't know what it's about (like myself) will now know.

[ClosetOtaku]

I read the trilogy. I didn't pick up on the anti-Christian (that's right... anti-Christian) theme until the last book. However, it is very plain and outright in the book -- enough so that it spoiled the entire series for me. Only afterwards did I learn of Pullman's absolute biases against religion (and in particular Christianity).

I am not planning on seeing the movies.

[ilikegir33]

I'm still going to see it.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

The first book is great, the second is pretty good and the third is just horrible and so overt in it's bashing of Christianity and God.
I'll probably see the first movie... on dvd.

[Puguni]

Yeah, I just read the first book and I didn't really catch anything. Probably because I was in 7th grade, lol. But looking back now, it was kind of unsettling for some reason. But I'm still sad to hear that.

[uc pseudonym]

I saw one of the first trailers in theaters and laughed that it began with "From the makers of the Chronicles of Narnia..." Of course, the plot doesn't move to the strongly anti-religion point until The Amber Spyglass, but this world view is evident throughout.

For a while I wondered how subtly they would play with those themes, but then:

"That is heresy!"
"That is the truth."

So yes, not exactly subtle, regardless of what John Gibson claims. Also:
[spoiler]"That is Sparda!"[/spoiler]

[Etoh*the*Greato]

The first book, I'm told by a friend who read it, does not have much of a hint of anti-religiosity at all. The second book, only a little bit if you really construe things. I've not heard from her on the topic of the third book, but... I have to be entirely honest, my reaction to this entire email has been tainted largely by the negative press surrounding Harry Potter and the Da Vinci Code. Both showed different sides to Christians overreacting to something that largely did not need overreacting to.

[Tenshi no Ai]

The first book, I'm told by a friend who read it, does not have much of a hint of anti-religiosity at all. The second book, only a little bit if you really construe things. I've not heard from her on the topic of the third book, but... I have to be entirely honest, my reaction to this entire email has been tainted largely by the negative press surrounding Harry Potter and the Da Vinci Code. Both showed different sides to Christians overreacting to something that largely did not need overreacting to.

I'm actually curious as to just how bad the dissing is. I mean, the site says somethign about a portrayal of 'Adam and Eve' trying to 'kill God'. Now, something in that sense sounds like something out of an anime, really.

For me, Harry Potter is an awsome series, Da Vinci is just dumb if people turn fiction into reality (although more of the whole tomb press in the recent year doesn't help, but you know), but I'm curious if it's something you read and go 'hey that's not very nice '. Not that CS Lewis was perfect, with allusions of the one people (can't remember their names) that seemed Middle Eastern seem like the bad guys of the story (if, it is a racism thing after all, but back in those days were different anyhow).

Any examples on the actual BASHING, or is it just more in a sense negativity?

[Etoh*the*Greato]

There have been a lot of emails going out in prochristian circles regarding the whole thing. I've had several customers (I work at a Bookstore) come in and say something like, "Oh, ew, that's an anti-christian book." It's just all very reminiscent to the controversies that have come before. There was nothing overwhealmingly pro or anti-Christian about Harry Potter and well... DVC would have garnered much less attention if we hadn't made such a big deal out of it collectively.

[bakura_fan]

well, to me, I see the difference as this. In my understanding, the authors of Harry Potter and the Divinci Code were merely writing as fiction writers to write a story, correct? Whereas the author of the Golden Compass purposely wrote the books to guide kids to the conclusion that the church is evil and that there is no God.

[Kkun]

I'm actually curious as to just how bad the dissing is. I mean, the site says somethign about a portrayal of 'Adam and Eve' trying to 'kill God'. Now, something in that sense sounds like something out of an anime, really.

For me, Harry Potter is an awsome series, Da Vinci is just dumb if people turn fiction into reality (although more of the whole tomb press in the recent year doesn't help, but you know), but I'm curious if it's something you read and go 'hey that's not very nice '. Not that CS Lewis was perfect, with allusions of the one people (can't remember their names) that seemed Middle Eastern seem like the bad guys of the story (if, it is a racism thing after all, but back in those days were different anyhow).

Any examples on the actual BASHING, or is it just more in a sense negativity?

Is it healthy (for lack of a better word), as a Christian, to make a distinction between "bashing" and "negativity" and try to call one better than the other? I've not read the books, but from what I can gather from researching online, when you get to The Amber Spyglass, the anti-Christian themes are not only laid on thick, but are woven into the tapestry of the story.

The way Pullman presents the supernatural elements in it, from his representation of angels to God, seems calculated to make a point. It doesn't seem like this is a matter of mere sentences and lines of dialogue that take ambiguous jabs at God and Christ. Rather, it seems to be more that by the trilogy's end, the negative opinion he establishes of The Authority and religion is the crux of Pullman's ideology with his vehemence toward religion being the driving force in his writing. Because of this, as a fan of literature, I think it would be disingenuous to the work itself to try and extrapolate some kind of half-hearted Christian moral from its overall message or to say "Oh, it's not THAT offensive to Christians." because that goes against everything Pullman seems to be trying to establish with his trilogy. I myself do not plan to wade through the His Dark Materials trilogy with the long list of other books I'd rather read, but I think it would be prudent for anyone who wants to get involved in this series to think hard about it first.

I was a bit reticent to say anything about this subject because I thought the whole Christian revulsion against Harry Potter, for instance, was absurd. Christians have been freaking out over popular culture en masse since the days of Dungeons and Dragons. The difference as I see it, however, is that Harry Potter's oft-complained about "offensive material" was merely incidental (I am aware of the Biblical scriptures regarding witchcraft, but that is another discussion for another thread or PM) and not explicitly anti-Christian. Conversely, HDM seems to dig its heels in and make it very plain that it is grinding an axe. Again, I've not read the books, but this is merely the impression I get from reading about the books. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, anyone who has read the trilogy (particularly the last book, which seems to be the most blatant).

[AJV]

Surprisingly I don't remember hearing anything about it until I saw Bill Donohue talk about it on the World Over
(It's the Catholic EWTN television network's weekly news show, incase you're wondering).

Also I don't plan on seeing the movie or read the books.

[AsianBlossom]

I think that's where we first heard it as well. Good show.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Only the third book is purely anti-Christian in nature.

[uc pseudonym]

For everyone who wants specific information about the anti-religious nature of the books, I intend to do my best in this post. Keep in mind I read the books a long time ago, so even a Wikipedia search could prove me lacking. But I'll try not to say anything I don't remember clearly.

Spoiler-tagged for those who care:
[spoiler]In the initial parts, the primary negative content is a caricaturization of Christianity as its most puritanical and dogmatic versions. As in my quote earlier, it portrays the religious as blind followers of foolishness who want to throw away science and logic. Those who follow religion are generally portrayed as stuffy individuals who are determined that no one anywhere will ever have any fun (and Pullman seems to think the definition of "fun" is "sex").

There are a number of positively portrayed anti-religious characters that are affirmed by the plot and used as mouthpieces for anti-Christian and even specifically anti-Bible arguments (though not frequently and only in places that make sense in the plot). This part is very explicitly Christian bashing and would be at home in the testimonials of many real life atheists.

Then as the plot moves into more serious stages, it is discovered that "God" is only the first being spawned randomly by the universe. He then told all the others that he created them and set himself up as lord of everything. However, angels and spirits are apparently weaker than mortals because they lack physical bodies, so this control is tenuous.

By the final stages of the story, The Authority (aka the Christian idea of God) has given almost all his power to one of his chiefs, Metatron. When they eventually find him, he is so old and fragile that contact with the outside world (he is in a box-type thing) destroys him. Metatron gets knocked off the edge of something, if I recall. Thus the climax of the story is destruction of a very Christian-esque divinity.[/spoiler]

[Bobtheduck]

The authoris trying to do the opposite of what CS Lewis did (use analogy to bring people to atheism), and the story is about Killing God. No joke... Yeah, I'm not gonna bother with this one, for sure.

This movie is trying to ride the Harry Potter coattails, but while I'll defend Harry Potter to the standstill, I won't even bother with this one because the author made his point very clear...

[Scarecrow]

Yes... I was planning on seeing this but I don't think I will anymore. A ticket for this is a vote for Pullman. And I can't stand Pullman. Reading any of his interviews is enough to make your blood boil.

A while back I was interested in buying the book Paradise Lost by John Milton (where Pullman got the title of his trilogy from). Well, I was at borders and found it but in HUGE red letters under the title it said something like: Forward and chapter analysis by Philip Pullman. It was a nice hardbound edition with nice pictures but having his name even printed on the cover let alone a forward and chapter analysis was enough for me to pass.

I haven't really been back to look for another edition but anyway... got a little hesitant to buy a book Pullman endorses so much... I haven't figured out why a poem about the garden of eden, the fall of Satan etc has this guy wooing over it even going so far as to name his trilogy after a line in the poem. As far as I know the author was a Christian in the 1600s but I'm a little fuzzy on what Pullman sees so appealing in it. Never read the poem myself.

[Kkun]

Yes... I was planning on seeing this but I don't think I will anymore. A ticket for this is a vote for Pullman. And I can't stand Pullman. Reading any of his interviews is enough to make your blood boil.

A while back I was interested in buying the book Paradise Lost by John Milton (where Pullman got the title of his trilogy from). Well, I was at borders and found it but in HUGE red letters under the title it said something like: Forward and chapter analysis by Philip Pullman. It was a nice hardbound edition with nice pictures but having his name even printed on the cover let alone a forward and chapter analysis was enough for me to pass.

I haven't really been back to look for another edition but anyway... got a little hesitant to buy a book Pullman endorses so much... I haven't figured out why a poem about the garden of eden, the fall of Satan etc has this guy wooing over it even going so far as to name his trilogy after a line in the poem. As far as I know the author was a Christian in the 1600s but I'm a little fuzzy on what Pullman sees so appealing in it. Never read the poem myself.

Some of Milton's allegory for Satan in the poem was drawn from Milton's personal experience working for Oliver Cromwell while writing for the English Commonwealth in the mid-17th century. Milton casts Satan in a somewhat favorable light early in the story (though diminishing his character greatly by the time he tempts Eve in the Garden). Some people interpret Satan as a kind of noble metaphor for rising up against the established powers that be. They believe Milton cast Satan in a sympathetic light, then broke his character down to convey his disappointment with Cromwell's Commonwealth. The poet William Blake would write that Milton was "of the Devil's party without knowing it..." sometime after Paradise Lost was published. I don't necessarily agree, but it makes an interesting point. As far as Pullman's drawing inspiration from PL, it sounds like Pullman digs the heroic Satan/fallen Angels interpretation with God playing the tyrannical role.

[rocklobster]

I think it is so sad that the Devil is using this person to corrupt our youth.

[AsianBlossom]

Yep, so true. I mean, it's the whole "oh, honey! It's the book that that movie was based off of! You know, the one that Jared liked so much. Let's get the books for him as a Christmas present." and then they buy it.

[bakura_fan]

To me, if you guys want to see it, that's fine, but I do ask you, please wait to rent it on DVD. The less ticket sales they have in the movie theatres the better. If they get such poor ratings, they may not decide to make the other books into movies....

[ClosetOtaku]

I think there is some reluctance to characterize the His Dark Materials trilogy as anti-Christian, in light of some of the "typical" push-back from Christian circles on things like Halloween, Harry Potter, and D&D.

For the past two years, I've hosted a Halloween party at my house.

I read all the Harry Potter books, and enjoyed them all.

I played D&D throughout High School, and played as recently as two years ago, and enjoyed it.

I read the entire Pullman trilogy. In the third book, The Amber Spyglass, Pullman is unquestionably, unhesitatingly bashing Christianity. I do not currently have the book handy, but I recall summarizing many of his quotations as saying "All who believe in Christianity are victims of a sad mistake".

I am not simply against the Trilogy because I am some Christian activist who doesn't like secular things. I am against the Trilogy because it is a clear case of anti-Christian bigotry.

[Kkun]

For the past two years, I've hosted a Halloween party at my house.

I read all the Harry Potter books, and enjoyed them all.

I played D&D throughout High School, and played as recently as two years ago, and enjoyed it.

I read the entire Pullman trilogy. In the third book, The Amber Spyglass, Pullman is unquestionably, unhesitatingly bashing Christianity. I do not currently have the book handy, but I recall summarizing many of his quotations as saying "All who believe in Christianity are victims of a sad mistake".

I am not simply against the Trilogy because I am some Christian activist who doesn't like secular things. I am against the Trilogy because it is a clear case of anti-Christian bigotry.

Quoted for truth. Thanks for posting that, since you've read it.

[HiddenWoodchuck]

I think there is some reluctance to characterize the His Dark Materials trilogy as anti-Christian, in light of some of the "typical" push-back from Christian circles on things like Halloween, Harry Potter, and D&D.

For the past two years, I've hosted a Halloween party at my house.

I read all the Harry Potter books, and enjoyed them all.

I played D&D throughout High School, and played as recently as two years ago, and enjoyed it.

I read the entire Pullman trilogy. In the third book, The Amber Spyglass, Pullman is unquestionably, unhesitatingly bashing Christianity. I do not currently have the book handy, but I recall summarizing many of his quotations as saying "All who believe in Christianity are victims of a sad mistake".

I am not simply against the Trilogy because I am some Christian activist who doesn't like secular things. I am against the Trilogy because it is a clear case of anti-Christian bigotry.

Amen. I'm not gonna waste time viewing this movie... don't care to ever watch it on DVD or TV either.