why havent gamers banded together?

[cbwing0]

So I think your list of factions needs one more: Grossly irresponsible game developers who either put offensive content into some games or cannot be bothered to make sure the games their affiliates make are fully vetted before releasing to the public.

Ah yes! I actually did mean to include them, but forgot]Not all angry parents are zealots, not all lawyers are sleazy, not all politicians are looking to 2008. Some merely are greatly disturbed.[/quote]
Of course not! It's just that the ones chosen to represent their movements are.

[Arnobius]

Well, what I suspect will happen is Congress will make some meaningless growling, the industry will make some cosmetic changes and a year from now thigs will be the same as they are now... kind of like the movie industry after the school shooting incidents. I seriously doubt anything concrete will happen.

[cbwing0]

I seriously doubt anything concrete will happen.

Not a bad thing, since the issue isn't exactly concrete to begin with.

[Arnobius]

Not a bad thing, since the issue isn't exactly concrete to begin with.

Well, personally I think there are some issues that need to be discussed, but these are not the issues being addressed. That's always the way it goes though

[bbboy21]

You can run over old granny for there pocket change, beat up prostitutes with a bat to get your doe back, drive by shoot rival thugs,hear people say foul language more then a Jerry Springer show, Use and by and sell dope in a Mr. Whoopie ice cream truck, etc etc etc yet when it invovles with actual sex, its becomes quite a topic....is that sad with our govn. or what :/

[Nate]

Having educated myself a bit on the issue, I now feel a bit more qualified to speak in this thread. ^^;;

I've read about Jack Thompson, and he seems to be very caustic and rude to gamers who ask him honest, polite questions. Though I suppose the responses I've read could have been altered, I don't see that as likely. I suppose I could email him myself to find out, but given the sheer number of gamers that have likely done this to prank him, he may write me off as yet another person pranking him, denying me an opportunity to see if he merely dismisses any gamer as an idiot, or not.

I will say that based on comments I saw on the blog I read, a majority of gamers aren't doing much to disprove the myth that we're all violent psychopaths (though I suspect they may be the under 17 crowd).

If all of the huge retail chains like Wal-Mart refuse to carry AO games (which they have), then game companies will lose lots of sales if they earn an AO rating for a game.

Which I suspect is why they took the mini-game out of the final version, so that it would avoid the AO rating and thus Wal-Mart would carry it. Why they didn't remove the content entirely is anyone's guess, though it probably had to do with the fact that they wanted the game on store shelves, and completely erasing code like that may have caused glitches or bugs, so they left it in (but inaccessible).

QUICK EDIT: Though I have read many websites declare that the unlockable content in GTA San Andreas is what would be considered "softcore" and not pornographic at all, and that had the same content been in a movie, the movie would have been R-rated...which, if we are to assume AO is like NC-17, M would be like R, and therefore the M rating would've been appropriate for the content, but I suppose that is up to the ESRB and not to the consumers, so I guess that is a moot point.

I'm not a programmer, nor do I work for Rockstar, so I don't know. I WILL say that Rockstar handled this immaturely by flat out lying about the patch at first, it makes the gaming industry look bad, like they can't regulate themselves.

I also completely agree with number two on your list, cbwing.

At any rate, I agree, nothing is likely to come of this, and I for one am glad for that.

[Sonic_13]

heres what i dont get.

GTA had a bad thing IN IT that was only unlocked by downloading a program right?

ok.... now you can download a patch for WoW where the characters are naked, or something like that. why isnt WoW suddenly rated AO? It doesnt really make sense, the content in GTA was inaccessible unless you download a patch to open it. Which is equivalent to just downloading porn, or something.

[Myoti]

I bow to you, cbwing0. Excellent job.

So did anyone listen to the interview with Jack Thompson? You can find it here.

In it, he mentions such things like Wil Wright and EA collaborating with the porn industry. Honestly. I'm waiting for him to get sued for defamation. And he wonders why everyone in the gaming world hates him.

Also, have you seen how he responds to inquiries by gamers? Have a look here. The man is completely unreasonable.

"Wacko Jacko", as many call him.

I'm sorry, but has this guy even played video games before? And why, pray tell, does some who went to law school revert to bad grammar and spout the dumbest insults back had people who try to intelligently understand what's going?

[Nate]

ok.... now you can download a patch for WoW where the characters are naked, or something like that. why isnt WoW suddenly rated AO?

Because nudity doesn't automatically make a game AO. You can have nudity in a T or M rated game, just like you can have nudity in a PG-13 movie. It depends on the level of nudity.

It doesnt really make sense, the content in GTA was inaccessible unless you download a patch to open it. Which is equivalent to just downloading porn, or something.

Or used an Action Replay or Gameshark cheat device for the console versions. The point is, any 14 year old kid with the internet and an AR can see this sex minigame, which isn't right.

[mechana2015]

I think this guy is going to burn himself quite soon. His attitudes will defame him and probably take several other peoples reputations down with him.

I've been reading through various news articles on him and by him and have not been impressed with his reasoning. Considering the first real generation of the "gaming public" will be of voting age by the next election (in the US), this may weigh quite heavily on their minds when they decide to vote if any players tainted in the situation come up for office.

[Myoti]

I tried to e-mail him, not to say anything negative, basically to just ask why he seems to enjoy putting down any gamers who try to contact him, but I got something from "MAILER_DAEMON" saying it wouldn't go through (hope this isn't a bad thing...).

[Arnobius]

Looks like it's not only America where people are upset.

http://www.cnet.com.au/games/ps2/soa/Australia_bans_GTA_San_Andreas/0,39029672,40056183,00.htm

[mechana2015]

I belive that Australia has been more stringant reguarding these things for a while though.

[Yojimbo]

Because nudity doesn't automatically make a game AO. You can have nudity in a T or M rated game, just like you can have nudity in a PG-13 movie. It depends on the level of nudity.


Or used an Action Replay or Gameshark cheat device for the console versions. The point is, any 14 year old kid with the internet and an AR can see this sex minigame, which isn't right.

Very true. God of War has nudity in it and a psuedo sex minigame but nothing is shown. In the "Hot Coffee" mod there is actual sex, albeit really stupid looking but it's still sex.

The point isn't that any kid can download it and see some nudity in a game. Like he said there is a nude patch for WoW, there was a nude patch for Tomb Raider, and there are probably plenty more for other games. The point is that the content was made by Rockstar but before it was released the content was locked and hidden. It's the fact that they coded it into the game originally but decided against it by locking it and now that it has been uncovered is the problem.

[Arnobius]

I belive that Australia has been more stringant reguarding these things for a while though.

Yeah, but I meant the sudden banning on the same grounds that the US is upset over. There seems to be a general understanding that the game did not merit the earlier rating in light of the recently discovered Hot Coffee.

[Destroyer2000]

No, M should stay and so should AO. When someone sees AO, they think porn. When someone sees an M rating, it isn't so bad. It's a matter of psyche. Jack Thompson, the lawyer, is trying to get Halo 2 and Halo banned. What a moron. If he does, someone will show up at his house and I doubt he'll come out in one piece. How can Halo possibly teach someone how to Snipe? If he want's to blame a game for that, blame Silent Scope! The guy is an idiot. He resorts to childish tactics whenever he is arguing with someone, such as name calling, and such as that. THere was a 14 year old, however, that told him off and just completely slaughtered him the argument. The site I was on, where I was reading, had ads, "Find local sex offenders." and then "Get free XXX movies" O_o...strange...

[Destroyer2000]

Yeah, there's a patch for Morrowind for nudes as well. Do I care? No. Some desperate, hormone crazed teen made it, not Bethesda. Someone needs to shoot that guy...

[Nate]

Well, also remember, even a game like Silent Scope is USELESS for teaching you how to use a rifle. I mean, it'll help you as far as actually shooting one, but it doesn't teach you how to load a rifle, how to take off the safety, how to...yeah, all that good stuff you need to know how to do to actually SHOOT one.

Pressing a button is a little bit different than pulling a trigger.

[Yojimbo]

The argument he makes that playing a FPS like Halo will teach kids how to snipe is ludicrous. I mean me playing Madden won't give me a better throwing arm. Videogames do improve hand eye coordination but playing them won't make you better at any skill unless you actually do it.

[Destroyer2000]

When someone meets him in a corner with a 9mm, they can tell him their hand-eye coordination is better because of videogames. Then pull the trigger.

[Nate]

When someone meets him in a corner with a 9mm, they can tell him their hand-eye coordination is better because of videogames. Then pull the trigger.

<.< >.>

*cough*

Are you talking about Jack Thompson?

Um, you know...I hate to tell you this, but when gamers say stuff like that, it only fuels the fire. I mean, what's his big argument? That video games make people more violent. When people say stuff like, "Man, I hope he gets shot," or "I'd like to kill him" or "That idiot needs to die a horrible death," it's only reinforcing his point.

The more you say that, the more truthful you make Jack Thompson look. And none of us want that, do we?

[Myoti]

True, Kaem, but if he comes through with some of the stuff he's saying, he may get more than he bargained for. I'm not saying I really want anything to happen to him, but he's threading on thin ice.

Hopefully no one ends up listening to him and this just blows over...

[Sonic_13]

Because nudity doesn't automatically make a game AO. You can have nudity in a T or M rated game, just like you can have nudity in a PG-13 movie. It depends on the level of nudity.


Or used an Action Replay or Gameshark cheat device for the console versions. The point is, any 14 year old kid with the internet and an AR can see this sex minigame, which isn't right.

Bah, I dont care about nudity lol! That wasnt my whole point on how nudity can alter ratings....

anyway... if you think about it anyone who has the internet can view porn anyways, if they wanted. Parents shouldnt allow their 14 year old kid to buy M rated games if they dont trust the kid right?

I'm quite sure any game could somehow have a patch "downloaded" to make it AO rated content. Hackers are good these days. So they're only making this game AO because the content was in there to begin with, which is kinda ridiculous. Bah whatever, all I care about is I'm not able to play this until next year

[Nate]

I'm quite sure any game could somehow have a patch "downloaded" to make it AO rated content.

You're right, pretty much any game could have a patch downloaded to have nudity on it. HOWEVER, the company can either condone or condemn it. The creator of The Sims condones any and all user-modified patches, which is why Jack Thompson is making a ridiculous claim that they're in cahoots with the porn industry.

But, not all companies are like that. This is a couple of years old, but it illustrates not all companies sit back and idly watch as people hack their games:

Videogame company Tecmo launched a preemptive crackdown on "nude patches" for the XBox game Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball. Adopting the music industry's "treat customers like criminals" approach, Tecmo administrator recently posted a threatening message on the company's user forums: "We're watching you very closely! Please do not post things that infringe copyrights and other legal issues. So far we're tracking one suspect, anybody care to be the second? Please do not post anything about Nude Patches and other hacked information or you will be punished to the fullest extent of the law."

[Solid Ronin]

The problem I have with all this comotion is the fact that they kep saying that its al going toward children.

ITS A M RATED GAME!!!!!! M = NOT FOR KIDS!!!

The Hot Coffe game didnt happen in a Mrio Bros. it happens in a games call ed GRAND THIEF AUTO!!! That do they think is in the game!

However, I can agree with GTA:SA should be rated AO with or without Hot Coffe

Everyone keeps foolishly ranting about Jack T., When they should be angry at Rockstar games!

You've given us crap since the day you were formed Thannks for nothing Popstar!

*Rockstar is too cool a name for them ,Therfore I rename them Popstar...Like the Jessica Simpson kind.

[Yojimbo]

The problem I have with all this comotion is the fact that they kep saying that its al going toward children.

ITS A M RATED GAME!!!!!! M = NOT FOR KIDS!!!

The Hot Coffe game didnt happen in a Mrio Bros. it happens in a games call ed GRAND THIEF AUTO!!! That do they think is in the game!

However, I can agree with GTA:SA should be rated AO with or without Hot Coffe

Everyone keeps foolishly ranting about Jack T., When they should be angry at Rockstar games!

You've given us crap since the day you were formed Thannks for nothing Popstar!

*Rockstar is too cool a name for them ,Therfore I rename them Popstar...Like the Jessica Simpson kind.

And we've already established here that an AO rated is the equivalent of a porn movie rating. So nothing won't be carrying that unless it has sex in it.
And that's your opinion. I actually like Rockstar's games. Rockstar hasn't sucked in quality since the Playstation days. Have you actually played Max Payne 1 and 2 or Red Dead Revolver? And I have no qualms playing GTA, I have 3 and Vice, because they're only games.

[Nate]

Popstar is the name of the planet Kirby and friends live on.

The only problem I have with Rockstar is, as I've said before, purposely lying about the Hot Coffee thing when it was first revealed, saying that it was a third-party hack and not intended to be there...then when the same content was found on Xbox/PS2, they got caught in their lie.

I actually really enjoy GTA III...Vice City was okay too, but I thought III was where they really shone.

[Yojimbo]

Popstar is the name of the planet Kirby and friends live on.

The only problem I have with Rockstar is, as I've said before, purposely lying about the Hot Coffee thing when it was first revealed, saying that it was a third-party hack and not intended to be there...then when the same content was found on Xbox/PS2, they got caught in their lie.

I actually really enjoy GTA III...Vice City was okay too, but I thought III was where they really shone.

Yeah same here like I've said I wish they just didn't lie about it. Well III changed games forever. How many games have come out that claimed to be open ended since and claimed GTA's style? A heck of alot. And it just proved that games really can be up there with the likes of movies. Getting the same kind of exposure and popularity. I think they've gotten better with every installment. I mean the story in III was ok but it wasn't very immersive Claude was extremely boring. But Vice and San Andreas have a story you can actually get into. Not to mention the cities keep getting bigger, the graphics have improved, and there's alot more you can do. GTA doesn't have the greatest stories, the greatest driving, shooting, or any of that. It just ties everything together so seamlessly and makes it work.

[Myoti]

On another note, not all children are going to let their parents see what they get. I'm 16 I've made at least 20 or so game and/or manga purchases without letting my parents know a thing, and when my birthday rolls around in two months, I plan on getting RE4.
They know I'm responsible in what I get, but many parents believe this of their children when it's not so.

*Rockstar is too cool a name for them ,Therfore I rename them Popstar...Like the Jessica Simpson kind.

That's like an insult to Kirby. O_o

[Conner999]

*Quickly skims through thread*

"I fail to see how AO is any stricter than M. Like one year makes any bit of difference..."

Some stores that carry games refuse to sell AO games period. Wal-Mart sells more videogames than most other stores, and they do not carry AO games. So moving up to that rating can really hurt a game's sales. THAT is why it was hidden, to try to get that content in the game without having to go AO. Plus, it is getting a freakload of free publicity... They KNEW it would be unlocked eventually. It was a very clever thing to do. Not that I condone the content.

It deserves the AO rating, because the content was made by ROCKSTAR, and included in the game right off the shelf. It was not fanmade like other mods. And the tools required to unlock them are not at all restricted to children, and are pretty cheap. (I've seen them go for less than $5.)


"Well, also remember, even a game like Silent Scope is USELESS for teaching you how to use a rifle. I mean, it'll help you as far as actually shooting one, but it doesn't teach you how to load a rifle, how to take off the safety, how to...yeah, all that good stuff you need to know how to do to actually SHOOT one."

No, a toy laser rifle is not the same as an actual sniper rifle. So aiming skills in Silent Scope do not directly relate to aiming skills in real life. Yes it can help somewhat, but there is more to it than loading the gun, aiming, and pulling the trigger.







Another thing.. People should be going after parents to be more responisbile (like George W. Bush recently stated). The kids aren't getting the games without their parents buying it for them, so it's more the parent's fault than anyone elses.

I was in EBGames recently, and this 13 year old kid was trying to buy GTA: SA by himself. The manager kept telling him that he would not sell the game to the kid, so the kid was like "Well what if she calls you on my cell phone?" and the manager said "If she doesn't want to come here personally, you need to find another game."

Later the mother came in, and the manager said "before I can sell this to you, I have to tell you about the game content." And went on about the Hot Coffee mod, and all of the stuff in the game (rampant killing, violence, prostitution, ect). The mother bought it for him anyway.