Grandia: A Grand RPG series

[Tommy]

Once upon a time,I was bored because I had played everyone Final Fantasy and I was so bored and I tohught there weren o good RPGs out there until I went to the store and bought Grandia 2 because I couldn`t find the first one.

Grandia 2 proves now to be one of my all time favorites and towers over many FFs. It took me a month to beat it but that`s because i was snowed in for a week the time I got it and eventually beat it.

Grandia I is the game I`m playing now currently. I went with my dad to buy the 3rd one (aka Grandia Xtreme) and the guy there told us Xtreme was nearly impossible to find. Well,the next day we found it at another store. We gave the case to Grandia Xtreme and he put the disc in so we waked to the car and I couldn`t help but find Grandia II inside. We got so mad and the guy said they didn`t have the game that matched the case so we bought a game called Star Ocean: Till The End Of Time which I love. Anyways...

Grandia I`s graphics are very similar to FF7 except a little worse only because the characters are 2d. i`d say it`s like F6 when you`re riding the Chocobo on the World Map.

Grandia II`s graphics are an odd mix of FF7 and 9. I can`t describe them so you`ll have to search it in google.

TO THE POINT!

I wanna know if you guys have any info on Grandia IV. I mean,if it`s a possiblilty. That battle system would rock with people that are the hight of FF10.

I do kno of a game called Grandia Online which is an MMORPG similar to FF11 and won`t we out in Japan till 2006. We have to wait a while. Well,tell me what you think of the series. And I also heard Xtreme lacks a storyline. Tell me if that`s true.

[Chosen Raven]

I found Grandia II to be very offensive from a religious standpoint. Its storyline seemed to be a direct attack on Christianity, and a direct support of the humansitic "Believe in Yourself" philosophy. From a gaming standpoint, I found the music bland, the voice-acting good, the storyline cliche, the graphics excellent, and the game-play fun.

The original Grandia, however, is quite possibly my favorite game of all time. The storyline was downright allegorical to Christianity, the music was spectacular, the characters were memorable, the gameplay was excellent, and it has one of the greatest love stories in gaming. On the downside, it's graphics have not aged too well(I thought they were great when it first came out), and the voice-acting is atrocious(though there are a few good VAs). Personally, I recommend that anyone who has never played this game get it immediately.

For those interested, there's a piece about the original Grandia's symbolism at RPGamer. You might have to do some digging to find it, though.

[Debitt]

I love Grandia II. I love it almost as much as FF9. Yes, I know I'm a bad, overly tolerant Christian, but Roan is absolutely adorable.

Grandia EX was somewhat of a disappointment, though, so I have yet to look into Grandia IV.

[Hephzibah]

I have Grandia II (got it for 10 bucks Only reason why I bought it ), but as I was playing it I got a hiuge conscience attack about it... so, it is now collecting dust somewhere in the collection of comp games and I am shorter 10 dollars that could have been put towards something better
*sigh* Dontcha hate it when that happens?

[desperado]

i stopped playing it about the part where [spoiler] "your god is dead and valmar (satan bassacally) was just wounded and now waits to rule the world" part. [/spoiler] this game is bassiacally a worm that works its way in with the good characters and voices plus the good begining to the game, and then slowly turns bad [spoiler] i mean come on that part with the little girl was just downright sickening (the one with the weird eye of valmar thing) [/spoiler] and to just let those know the jist of the plot read this (but major spoilers if your going to play this game [spoiler] bassically the forces of granas and valmar had a war. the two beings wich once were allies) and then the two fight and granas is killed and valmar seperated into peices so he can posses humans and rebuild himself by having the humans devour other humans that have the peice in them. this is all the history behind the game and it is revealed by the religous leader of the game who turns out to be the final boss in the game [/spoiler]

[Rocketshipper]

lol, it's like the complete opposite for me. Grandia 2 is my second favorite RPG of all time, behind the Lunar series, but I didn't like Grandia 1 all that much. I thought Grandia 1 was too slow paced, and I didn't like the battle system much, and the ending was kind of anti-climactic. I did like Justin and Su's (the girl with purple hair. I think that was her name ^_^) characters, but they didn't carry the story for me. Also, Grandia 2's storyline is almost the EXACT same plot from Grandia 1, except with religion, and I know technicly that makes Grandia 2 the rip-off, but since I played it first it made the story in the first game feel repetitive. As far as the second game went, I thought it was awesome ^^. The battle system rocked, I love the music (I have the CD. *sings along to Cancao de Povo*) and I think all the characters were really well developed. The love triangle between Ryudo, Millenia, and Elena reminded me of Tenchi Muyo, one of my favorite series, which made me like it even more. The voice acting was really good. Cam Clark played Ryudo. Honestly, the religious aspect of the story didn't bother me a whole lot. I didn't really view the religion as being bad, in itself, but rather just corrupt by Zera and his cronies, and even when they said that Granas was dead and Valmar was stronger I thought there was still potential to not ruin the story. I was hoping Granas might make a come-back ^^. The one thing that dissapointed me was that apparently Elena gave up being a nun at the end. If I'd have written it I'd have had her do something like revive Granas' teachings and get rid of all the corruption that had been rapant in the orginazation. Too bad, but there are always Fanfics ^_^

[Debitt]

I was under the impression that...
[spoiler]Granas died because he sacrificed himself to seal valmar away.[/spoiler]

But I digress. I'm over tolerant - I don't see the religion in Grandia II as being an attack on Christianity, but more a plot full of twists used to keep the gamer interested. I highly doubt the writer's got together and said "Christianity sucks, let's bash it as much as possible, okay guys?" And, like Rocketshipper said, the plots of Grandia I and II are fairly similar, so I dont' see why people bash on II so often.

[Chosen Raven]

And, like Rocketshipper said, the plots of Grandia I and II are fairly similar, so I dont' see why people bash on II so often.

How on Earth are they similar? Grandia II did a complete 180 in the story and character departments. Gone was the light-hearted tale of adventure and growing up, and in it's place was a humanistic tale of the power of humanity to over-come silly things like religion and do what is right in their own eyes. In the original Grandia, Justin only gains the power to defeat Gaia by believing in the Spirits(which are one being) and asking them for help. In Grandia II, Ryudo gains the power to defeat Valmar by using a sword forged from the human heart. The characters are completely different as well. There have never been characters with so little in common as Justin and Ryudo.

Grandia II's storyline remains cliche even today. I can name a good many RPGs with the themes of humanism and relativism that Gradia II had. To this day, I can only name two RPGs that have a pro-religious view-point. Grandia and Tales of Eternia.

I highly doubt the writer's got together and said "Christianity sucks, let's bash it as much as possible, okay guys?"

You'd be suprised. Many RPGs have a religion that looks a heck of alot like Christianity being the bad guy. The only logical conclusion is that the writers of these games are purposely picking Christianity as their villian of choice. Commenting on the frequency of such depictions, someone I know called it "modern Japanese storytelling". Even non-Christians are noticing this.

Oh, and the Grandia article I mentioned in my last post is here: http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2000/q1/012600jma.html

[desperado]

man chosen raven you beat me to what i was going to say.

[Arnobius]

Keep in mind that in Japanese media (and Japan was the country to create the game), Christianity almost never comes out in a positive portrayal-- the best it can come out with is neutral, and frequently it is portrayed as an evil group. Even today there is belief in Japan that the Japanese Christians were acting as a fifth column preparing to turn the country over to foreign countries. In modern times, there seems to be a tendency in Asia to take offence at Christianity's claims to truth and salvation, considering it intolerant and arrogant.

I've played it twice, though it ran very buggy on XP SP2, finally crashing just before the final battle the second time I played it. From what I can see:
This game had two excellent sub stories (the girl with the eye and Ryuudo going home), several mediocre and a few just lame. The main character, Ryuudo, makes a long stream of anti-religious comments from beginning to end in the game. Members of the church are shown to be fanatical, intolerant and out of touch. These people even think there's an irrevocable difference between serving God and helping other people.
[spoiler]The leader of the church is the real villain, seeking power and willing to sacrifice others to do so[/spoiler]
The game was fun to play, but when they got to all the anti-religious slurs (and this game does, in the end, represent religion as an evil to be opposed), the joy went out of it. I kept to the end hoping to see that there was a double switch and Granas really was alive, but no-- just a "man is his own master, religion is an evil institution" message.

Strictly from a game perspective it *was* kind of easy-- Give Elena the Chaos egg, buy the fire spells to max and get her both skills for fire/explosion maxed. Walk around going FWACKOOM!!!. High Priestess Selene was right: Fire is fun (Elena ended up doing more damage than the rest of the players combined--including special moves-- and when Millenia appears, give her the chaos egg and the skills, same results)

For those members who mentioned this, I don't think that liking the game makes one a bad Christian. It was a fascinating plot (I'd consider reinstalling and playing again, but wonder what the point was since it locks up at the very end with XPSP2), but when things just seemed deflated when they made a religion with Christian appearances out to be an evil institution.

[shooraijin]

I've played Grandia 2 on the Dreamcast, and found it enjoyable. I haven't gotten very far in it though.

[Arnobius]

I've played Grandia 2 on the Dreamcast, and found it enjoyable. I haven't gotten very far in it though.

Hope we haven't wrecked it for you...
In spite of its moral flaws, I do have to admit that it is a very engaging game, with writing good enough to make you care about the chara...

Maybe that's why I felt so betrayed...

[Rocketshipper]

yeah, the characters and sub-plots were different, but take that away and look at the core conflict and you will see what i'm talking about. here, lets do it.


*spoilers* (It's been awhile since I played Grandia 1, so I may screw up names or something, and if I grossly mis-represent the story tell me ^^)

[spoiler=Grandia1]

Grandia 1: The corrupt military general guy (Baal? That's the name I got from game FAQ ^^) sets out to find all the pieces of some ancient weapon/creature/whatever (Gaia was it??) and unite them with himself so he can "evolve" to a higher existance and destroy and/or rule the world.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Grandia2]

Grandia 2: The corrupt Pope Zera sets out to find all the pieces of Valmar, an ancient evil god, and unite them all with himself so he can evolve and become a God to rule over humans and/or destroy the world.

[/spoiler]

So in the end I think of Grandia 2 as more of a remake/re-imagining of the first game rather than a real sequal.

[Debitt]

I've played Grandia 2 on the Dreamcast, and found it enjoyable. I haven't gotten very far in it though.

Mmm, Dreamcastalicious. Good to know I'm not the only one who's played the game on the DC.

[Tommy]

Note: I don`t know about you but the second I heard Zera`s name mentioned at the begining of the game (right after escorting Elena to the tower) i knew he was evil. It was so obvious. It was also disapointed Melfice didn`t stick around longer. He would`ve made a good Sephiroth figure.

To the Religious Point:
Ok,first of all, from what I`ve seen those people who stopped playing the game because the storyline got bad are kind of over protective.

Before I sit down and play and RPG i remember that if they use a religon it`s just a made-up story and Granas and valmar are two fictional characters. Videogame makers aren`t selling games to get people into their religons,they sell them to make money.

You`ve got to just look at it as a make-believe story and no it`s not real because even after Granas died I found the storyline enjoyable and the game actually got harder. Before you sit down and play a Final fantasy or any kind of RPG because most have spiritual elements, you have to remember it`s just a game and nothing that happens is real.

*SPOLIER* In Grandia II,

[spoiler=Grandia2]
I saved up all my best and most powerful attack items for the last boss expecting a challenge. What I got made me cry. The most pathetic and easy last boss in RPG history (outside RPGs I`ve seen more pathetic). Zea-Valmar looked like a deformed jellyfish and what was worse-Did you see his face when he used magic? Ewww

SPOILER- If you`ve defeated Melfice in Grandia 2, good work because he is the hardest boss in the game. The second hardest boss is Valmar-Core in which you fight in new Valmar.
[/spoiler]
Go ahead Bash me. That`s just what I do .

[Chosen Raven]

yeah, the characters and sub-plots were different, but take that away and look at the core conflict and you will see what i'm talking about. here, lets do it.


*spoilers* (It's been awhile since I played Grandia 1, so I may screw up names or something, and if I grossly mis-represent the story tell me ^^)

<spoilers pulled, see original post above ... shooraijin>

So in the end I think of Grandia 2 as more of a remake/re-imagining of the first game rather than a real sequal.

Alot of RPGs are similar if you remove key story elements. You could say that most RPGs are the same if you ignore everything but the most basic plot elements. Grandia's story is different from Grandia II's in the elements of character, sub-quests, theme, and pacing. They only appear to be similar when you strip them down to their bare bones.

Go ahead Bash me. That`s just what I do .

You bash people!?

[desperado]

acctually on that note ff7 is a lot like grandia
the corrupted and evil sephiroph/jenova is out to gain more powerful so he can become the ultimate being by wounding the world and absorbing its energy.

its a lot like this every horror movie has the same basic elements. every romance movie has the same basic elements. every science fiction genre has certain elements. to be an rpg means you have certain elements.

[shooraijin]

Posts above spoilerized, and not just because I haven't finished the game. Please, if you put spoilers in your posts, use spoiler tags.

[Arnobius]

Note: I don`t know about you but the second I heard Zera`s name mentioned at the begining of the game (right after escorting Elena to the tower) i knew he was evil. It was so obvious. It was also disapointed Melfice didn`t stick around longer. He would`ve made a good Sephiroth figure.

To the Religious Point:
Ok,first of all, from what I`ve seen those people who stopped playing the game because the storyline got bad are kind of over protective.

Before I sit down and play and RPG i remember that if they use a religon it`s just a made-up story and Granas and valmar are two fictional characters. Videogame makers aren`t selling games to get people into their religons,they sell them to make money.

Having played it through twice (the second time I made sure to talk to everyone multiple times), I think this one was preaching an anti-religious message. It's kind of like those Hollywood movies where it tries to promote a certain political view. That's Game Arts though. UbiSoft probably just thought it was a cool game. And it does have good elements. Heck, I bought the soundtrack to the game and that was after I finished it...

You`ve got to just look at it as a make-believe story and no it`s not real because even after Granas died I found the storyline enjoyable and the game actually got harder. Before you sit down and play a Final fantasy or any kind of RPG because most have spiritual elements, you have to remember it`s just a game and nothing that happens is real.

In most cases I would agree with you. In this case the message was "in your face" where a religion deliberately modelled after Christianity was set up to be a hypocritical, power hungry and domineering religion. When played in Japan, it probably just reflects the writer's bias and wasn't noticable in a nation that was 99% non-Christian. When brought over to America, people are going to take issue with these things. I think Grandia II was rather unique in this way (or at least, I haven't found one similarly done in other games)

*SPOLIER* In Grandia II,

I'll follow Shooraijin's example and not quote a spoiler, but you're right about the main boss.
[spoiler]Because he didn't have multiple parts, he was limited to one attack/turn, so it was easy to trash him. Melfice was harder, but as I said above, with Elena having the Chaos egg with maxed out fire spells and maxed out fire/explosion spell skills, she probably did 3/4 of the damage to Melfice-- and did more than her White Apocaaclypse special ability maxed out. She was easily the most powerful chara in the game and interchangeable with Millenia when they switched off[/spoiler]

[shooraijin]

Heck, I bought the soundtrack to the game and that was after I finished it...

I thought it came with the game (at least the Dreamcast version I have has a soundtrack CD). Or is that not the complete soundtrack?

[Arnobius]

I thought it came with the game (at least the Dreamcast version I have has a soundtrack CD). Or is that not the complete soundtrack?

I guess I forgot to mention that I have the PC version? I thought I mentioned earlier problems with XP SP2.

There are two Japanese soundtrack albums: Deus and Povo. I picked up Deus from Anime Castle-- and found out it was a @#$% Son May disc. Combined, they have all musical tracks from the game. I don't know what the DreamCast had, whether it was both combined, or excerpts or just one of the two albums

(picture of "Deus" album).

Speaking of music in Grandia II, did anyone else think "NFL" when the battle music started? I kept expecting an announcer to say "Tonight! The Green Bay Packers take on the Chicago Bears in Hard Hitting regional action!" or something similar...

[shooraijin]

Right, but I didn't know which versions had the soundtrack in it (for all I knew, they all did). The one I have in my two-disc DC set has 12 tracks, but now that I look at it, it does say "Selections" implying it's not complete.

[Rocketshipper]

yay, spoiler tags. I still havn't figured out how to use those yet ^^. Anyway, yeah a lot of RPGs are similar when you take them down to the core, but to me it seemed like the two villains of Grandia 1 and 2 had motives that were WAAAY too similar to be normal. My honest reaction after finishing Grandia 1 was "Didn't I already play this game with religion and better characters??"

I have the Dreamcast CD right here in front of me. it has like 8 BGM tracks and 4 songs, Cancao de Povo little shelter mix, Cancao de Povo, A Deus, and A Deus Sunking Mix. For a game with such anti-religios themes I think the two main songs in the game were pretty spiritial, if I recall the lyrics correctly *goes to check on animelyrics.com* Anyway, I love Cancao de Povo. It's in Portuguese, lol, I wonder why they decided on that language. The scene where Elena and all the people sing Cancao de Povo and Rydo appears is the best scene in the WHOLE game. It always sends shivers down my spine. I knew the moment I saw that scene that Grandia 2 would be one of my all time favorite RPGs ^_^.

[Arnobius]

Right, but I didn't know which versions had the soundtrack in it (for all I knew, they all did). The one I have in my two-disc DC set has 12 tracks, but now that I look at it, it does say "Selections" implying it's not complete.

Maybe this link will help, since I don't know what you have on yours:
http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/dreamcast/grandia2/sound.shtml

[Nate]

Having played it through twice (the second time I made sure to talk to everyone multiple times), I think this one was preaching an anti-religious message.

That doesn't bother me, because Christianity is a faith, not a religion.

Yeah, yeah, I know, non-Christians don't see it that way, but I do, so it doesn't bother me...it's like the big argument about Final Fantasy Tactics. Some people said that Final Fantasy Tactics was bashing the Catholic church. I played the game, it's my favorite Final Fantasy of all time, and I never once even remotely thought it was bashing Catholicism.

Then again, I'm not Catholic. ^^;;

[shooraijin]

Maybe this link will help, since I don't know what you have on yours:
http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/dreamcast/grandia2/sound.shtml

Oh, okay. The DC soundtrack CD seems to take tracks from both, but is clearly not the complete soundtrack. Thanks for the link.

[Tommy]

You bash people!? [/QUOTE]

No, I meant go ahead and bash me about what I do. Lol.

[Tommy]

I guess I forgot to mention that I have the PC version? I thought I mentioned earlier problems with XP SP2.

There are two Japanese soundtrack albums: Deus and Povo. I picked up Deus from Anime Castle-- and found out it was a @#$% Son May disc. Combined, they have all musical tracks from the game. I don't know what the DreamCast had, whether it was both combined, or excerpts or just one of the two albums

(picture of "Deus" album).

Speaking of music in Grandia II, did anyone else think "NFL" when the battle music started? I kept expecting an announcer to say "Tonight! The Green Bay Packers take on the Chicago Bears in Hard Hitting regional action!" or something similar...

Lol. No you mean the world-champion and best team around the Patriots are versing the Eagles........yes,im from NE.

[Arnobius]

That doesn't bother me, because Christianity is a faith, not a religion.

I'd say it's a religion-- at least when talking about in terms of comparison with the religions of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and so forth. I think properly speaking, to refer to "The Christian Faith" or variants is to refer to the commonly held faith of Christians. I guess nowadays we can say it's synonymous with "Christian Religion" since common usage trumps grammar. You're free to use your preferred term, just remember that I'm referring to the same thing when I use mine.

Yeah, yeah, I know, non-Christians don't see it that way, but I do, so it doesn't bother me...it's like the big argument about Final Fantasy Tactics. Some people said that Final Fantasy Tactics was bashing the Catholic church. I played the game, it's my favorite Final Fantasy of all time, and I never once even remotely thought it was bashing Catholicism.

Then again, I'm not Catholic. ^^]
I'm not familiar with Final Fantasy, so I can't comment on that except to say this is the first I've heard of this. I know that the Japanese are more casual about these things, 99% of the country being non-Christian, but the teaching of Christianity as being bad for Japan seems to be the common thread when Christianity shows up at all...

Lol. No you mean the world-champion and best team around the Patriots are versing the Eagles........yes,im from NE.

Well Brady fumbled that ball so they should NOT have gone to the Super Bowl that first time

Basically I just picked two teams off the top of my head. The fact that the music sounded like the music they play when coming back from commercial breaks for NFL games was the important thing

[Nate]

but the teaching of Christianity as being bad for Japan seems to be the common thread when Christianity shows up at all...

Slightly off topic, but it seems to go here more than anywhere else.

I play the game Samurai Warriors, and I recently got Xtreme Legends, which has a brief history of each of the characters in the game.

Nobunaga Oda is one of the major bad guys in Samurai Warriors, and was the main bad guy in Onimusha 3 (and 2, I believe). He is referred to as a demon and monster multiple times. Upon reading his bio on Xtreme Legends...

He seems like a decent guy. He brought many technological advancments to Japan, including musket warfare. He also was a very large supporter of the spread of Christianity throughout Japan.

This thread (and the thing about Tactics) got me wondering...

Was his support of Christianity one of the major reasons he was called a demon and a monster?