Christian References in RPG's

[Magiroth]

I just picked up Xenosaga from my local Electronic Boutique up here in B.C. (25$ Canadian!) Aside from it being more of a movie then a game, I have no complaints about it except for one thing.

At about 1/4 into the game, (which I haven't beat yet, so no spoilers!) you get to see all the big 'Zophars' lined up in a circle in the spaceship/skyscraper Durandal. If you haven't played the game, I have no hope of explaining what a zophar is: I don't even know myself.... My complaint is that the Zophars are named after the Apostles, and the main one is called a German name which translates as 'child of Mary'.

I know enough of the history of Japan to recognize the effects that Catholic missionaries have had upon Japanese culture, but does every game/anime need weird references to Biblical characters or events? It never used to bother me, until I wondered if the Japanese youth (and adults) who absorb the media directed at them might begin to associate various biblical characters with animes or games, and not with the Bible. Where does this conception come from that to make a game's plot sound more 'deep' they need to include biblical names, and a smattering of verses from Revelations.

I need a list of games with Biblical references, preferably ones that have their origins in Japan. My mind says there are many, but I can't think of one right now...

[Vyse]

I know that one of Rena's cure spells in Star Ocean: The 2nd Story produces a crucfix...

Same with the crosses on graves in various RPGs

[Rocketshipper]

Calling the original Zohar "Child of Mary" is obvious, but there is a double meaning. "Marienkind" (sp?), is also the german title for a Brother's Grimm fairytale. From what I remember, it was about the virgin Mary sort of adopting a girl from earth and taking her to heaven, then she had to go away and she gave the girl the keys to heaven. There were 13 doors and Mary told her she could only open 12 of them, and behind each door was an apostle. Curiosity got the better of the girl and she opened the 13th door and saw the Holy Trinity. Then I think she ran away because she was so ashamed of disobeying Mary. That's all I can remember, I'll have to go and read the story again. I don't have a problem with the religious refrences placed in RPGs, in fact, I think it makes playing them even more interesting. Since Xenosaga hasn't been finished yet we'll have to wait and see where they take some of their symbolism, but within "Der Wille Zur Macht" I think there is one character who is sort of a "christ-like" figure, but I won't spoil anything else, since I don't think you've got that far yet.

[Chichiri]

I know enough of the history of Japan to recognize the effects that Catholic missionaries have had upon Japanese culture.

Was that before or after they crucified the missionaries?

I don't think they had a big effect on the culture. If they did, the Japanese population would have many more Christians than they do now, which I believe is around .75% of the population (less than one percent).

As for the Japanese people associating them with the Bible, it's highly doubtful. Most are unfamiliar with things from the bible. They might know that some of the names come from a western religion (judiasm or christianity), but it's doubtful that they would know anything more than that. Like i mentioned above, Christianity is a very, very minor religion in Japan. In Japan, crosses are usually fashion, not religious symbols. It just depends on the context that it's shown.

As for Xenosaga, it was supposed to tell the story of the beginning of a planet (according to xenogears, at least). But, (this goes to anyone) do not consider Xenosaga a christian friendly rpg because of it. The subtitles from the games come from books written by a german philospher named Nietzsche, who was about anti-religious as you can get (he basically saw no need for religion and didn't believe in religion at all if i recall correctly.

If there is biblical references in rpgs, its probably because it sounds "cool" to them. a lot like english looks cool. not because they care about the bible or they believe in it.

ps: Rocket Shipper, does this character's name that your thinking of in Xs2 begin with a C?

I need a list of games with Biblical references, preferably ones that have their origins in Japan. My mind says there are many, but I can't think of one right now.

Xenogears, Xenosaga, Star Ocean 2/3 (basically just the names). I cant think of anymore.

[CDLviking]

I think the terms in the game are more gnostic than biblical. Pleroma is a Gnostic doctrine and Zohar is a book of the Kabalah. It's kind of interesting, and I'm curious what direction they're going with it. It could be either really good, or really bad.

[Rocketshipper]

If there is biblical references in rpgs, its probably because it sounds "cool" to them.

Yeah, but I still think that makes it more interesting. I'll be sitting there playing the game and Momo's scientist dad starts quoting Revelations and I'm like "Hey, I know that verse!!". It's fun. I'm no expert at Nietzsche since I havn't read any of his books, but the idea I got from various forum discussions on other sites is that, at least as far as episode 1 goes, the game has very little to do with his philosophys other than sharing the title of his book and a few mentions by Albedo and Margelus of "The Will to Power". I wouldn't be surprised if they just chose to give the games Nietzsche book titles because they sounded cool too. "Dur Wille Zur Macht" is fun to say ^_^.

Rocket Shipper, does this character's name that your thinking of in Xs2 begin with a C?

I have not played Xs2 yet. And no. How do you do those spoiler highlight boxes?

As for Christian refrences in other games...Let's see. *thinks* In Xenogears and Chrono Trigger there were characters named Balthazar, Melchior, and Gaspar, which are supposedly the names of the three wisemen who visited the baby Jesus. I've heard that Shin Megami Tensei (sp?) has the Judeo/Christian God in it. And...I can't think of anything else

[Azier the Swordsman]

Final Fantasy: Leviathan and the Behemoth, both of which appear in the series frequently are taken straight from the Bible.

Silent Hill: The cult directly resembles a twisted version of Roman Catholicism.

[Rocketshipper]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Silent Hill. I was thinking only of RPGs. I thought the cult in SH was a devil worshipping cult. Isn't Samhael (sp?) another name for the devil? I know it's the name of SOME biblical character, if it's not Satan then it's some angel.

[Azier the Swordsman]

Whoops, I apparently didn't pay attention to the title of the thread, I thought you meant all games in particular anyways. My bad. But while we're on the subject:

In Silent Hill 3 we learn that the cult stems from an ancient religion that worships fallen angels. Whether or not Samael is another monicker for Satan or not I'm not sure.

The main annoyance in SH is in the third game when the cult blashphemesly refers to their demon god in the same manner we Christians talk about God. Yeah, it may be a false god but it's still slightly nagging.

As Heather says though: "Guess it wasn't much of a god if it could be killed by a human."

[Rocketshipper]

The thing that bothered me the most wasn't the cult but Heather's character. Instead of making her simply against the cult, the game seemed to make her against ALL religion. I also didn't like the fact that she became determined to kill Claudia by herself in order to get revenge. Overall, Heather was just way too much like Harry in the 5th Harry Potter book , she was all angsty and angry. It seemed like 90% of her lines in the game were her yelling at someone or her being mopy and anti-social. I think SH 3 is the worst game of the series. parts 1 and 2 were a zillion times better.

[CDLviking]

Final Fantasy: Leviathan and the Behemoth, both of which appear in the series frequently are taken straight from the Bible.

Silent Hill: The cult directly resembles a twisted version of Roman Catholicism.

Unfortunately, many satanist rituals are direct mockeries of Catholic rituals, so i can see how people would make that connection.

[Chichiri]

As for Christian refrences in other games...Let's see. *thinks* In Xenogears and Chrono Trigger there were characters named Balthazar, Melchior, and Gaspar, which are supposedly the names of the three wisemen who visited the baby Jesus. I've heard that Shin Megami Tensei (sp?) has the Judeo/Christian God in it. And...I can't think of anything else

Bah. How could I have forgotten Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne? I'M PLAYING IT RIGHT NOW. Geez. My mind just wasn't in the right place.

And you could say that the Judeo/Christian God is in SMT:N... but he's more or less the enemy of the game.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

The Thief series (stealth PC games) have a group called Hammerites. They sing and quote verses which seem to be heavily influenced by the Medieval Catholic denomination. But because this is the case they believe works get you to Heaven to be with the Master Builder and that God is all powerful and smites his enemies (nothing about forgiveness or grace). But this is probably before the Reformation.

(oops just realised your talking about RPGs)

[CDLviking]

Even before the reformation, that is not what Catholics believed.

[Magiroth]

I was thinking, since it's 'cool' to have religious references, why not make an RPG where there is an obvious religious undertone. At the end, your character finds a book, reads it "for God so loved..." and gets saved! I wonder what the reaction would be... it would probably get banned.

I would be nice to see religion portrayed as anything other then fanatical or cultish in a game... *sigh*

[CDLviking]

I think it would be cool to have a game where you're at least fighting on God's side instead of trying to beat his plan or something (Legend of Dragoons comes to mind). It seems like humans are always trying to overcome the gods in some games.

[Chichiri]

I was thinking, since it's 'cool' to have religious references, why not make an RPG where there is an obvious religious undertone. At the end, your character finds a book, reads it "for God so loved..." and gets saved! I wonder what the reaction would be... it would probably get banned.

I would be nice to see religion portrayed as anything other then fanatical or cultish in a game... *sigh*

well, it wouldn't sell and they would probably lose a lot of money... or put out a really crappy game. As i'm sure you are well aware of, Christians are a huge minority in the gaming population. I would go as far as to say somewhere between 3-5% of gamers are also christian.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

CDLiving, I thought the Catholic Church was very powerful in the Medieval church and they did place a huge emphasis on paying your way to Heaven and basically worshipping Mary. Luckily nowdays things have changed and people have come to realise its all about Grace. But it seems to me many Catholics still worship Mary more than Jesus.

Anyway, I think it would be awesome to have the Chronicles of Narnia as games and also Frank Peretti's This Present Darkness/Piercing the Darkness!

[ShiroiHikari]

let's not turn this into an argument about Catholicism please. take that kinda stuff to PM.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Sorry! I wasn't trying to cause an arguement.

[Destroyer2000]

I always found it odd that in the graveyard pic during Rurouni Kenshin, he put crosses above the graves.

[CDLviking]

CDLiving, I thought the Catholic Church was very powerful in the Medieval church and they did place a huge emphasis on paying your way to Heaven and basically worshipping Mary. Luckily nowdays things have changed and people have come to realise its all about Grace. But it seems to me many Catholics still worship Mary more than Jesus.

Suffice to say here that those are broad generalizations and severe misunderstandings. I will take the rest to PM.

[Rocketshipper]

Ressurect old topics! Yay!. I just got finished playing Xenosaga episode 2, and I could add some refrences to the topic. (warning, some spoilers)

[spoiler] Near the beginning of the game, chaos makes refrences to the verses in revelations that speak about the first seal judgments and the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. Albedo is the rider of the white horse (often interpretd as representing the anti-christ), Rubedo is the rider of the red horse (war) and Nigredo is the rider of the black horse (famine).

The main villian of the story is a religious organization called Ormus. They claim that they've existed since "before the messiah was crucified" and that the Zohar was given to them by God to use as they please, and that they are supposed to oversee all life in the universe. I mention them because they seem to be a cult of christianity or something. The leader of the group, who is called "The Pope" in the japanese version (it was changed to Patriarch in the english version), wears catholic looking robes and a skull cap, and the main religious symbol of the group is an upside down cross with what looks like a tree growing out of it.

Possibly the biggest story turn yet, at the very end of the game, right before the credits, there is a scene were chaos and Willhelm, the CEO of Vector, have a conversation and Willhelm reveals chaos' real name. It's Yeshua. Sources I've read said that "Yeshua" is Jewish for "Jesus". [/spoiler]

I can't wait for episode 3 of Xenosaga to be released. The plot is getting more and more interesting!

[Bobtheduck]

I have to say, as much as I loved the Final Fantasy series, I finally got shaken by X. I still like it. I mean, it is a great game and I would love to play it through again, but I often wonder if I should... The message behind the game was so painfully obvioius... [spoiler]I mean, the enemy was pretty plainly the catholic church, and the heroine is the one who abandons her faith and learns to trust in herself and her friends...[/spoiler]

That message has been in a lot of movies... the most prominent that comes to mind is that last King Arthur movie...

I never beat Tactics... My favorites in the series were 6 and 8 (I still love 10... I do) and I like Tactics, but I never had the patience to beat it... I just wasn't that good at it, truth be told. I have heard that there is an even more blatant sort of message like that in Tactics... Why so much hatred of the Christian church among the square staff? I didnt' think that hatred would have existed in Japan... I mean, Christianity isnt' exactly mainstream there... Where would it have had time and room to form? (the hatred, I mean)

Thinking back over it, even in 6, [spoiler]Kefka became a god[/spoiler] I mean, that is actually tolerable for me, but I just don't get why the hatred in 10...

[Rocketshipper]

one thing I liked about the X and X-2 storyline is at least they didn't go the way that Grandia 2 seemed to go where they all just give up religion totally. At least some of the people stuck to their faith with "New Yevon". I think if the game had been intended to be totally anti-religious they wouldn't have bothered to even have a "New Yevon" everyone would have just "come to their senses" and started believing only in themselves.

[Bobtheduck]

I didn't play X-2, but I did watch "Eternal Calm" and in that, it seemed New Yevon was just people not wanting to give something up that didn't work...

[Chosen Raven]

The main enemies in Vagrant Story were people serving the Catholic church.

*SPOILERS*

In Tales of Symphonia, the Pope was a bad guy(He wasn't the Pope of Catholicism, but, you know, of a religion that looked like it). Though I would hesitate to call Tales of Symphonia anti-religion. Even though the religion wasn't true at the start, it does become true in the end.

Tales of Eternia is one of only two RPGs I can think of that show something that looks like the Christian religion in a good light. Seyfert was obviously meant to represent God. The characters in the game flat-out side with Seyfert at one point. As you go to fight the final boss, Reid walks up to him and says "In the name of Seyfert, I have come to defeat you!"(or something to that effect). The final boss can only be beaten by using the holy techniques you learn at the three Seyfert Shrines. The final boss himself seems meant to represent Satan. He's a pure evil being that possesses people(by the way, this is a good game....get it).

The original Grandia had boatloads of Christian references that were actually used in the right context. A good article on the references is here: http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2000/q1/012600jma.html

Dragon Warrior VII portrays God as a good guy, but he's definitely not all-powerful. He fights the devil and beats him, but dies in the process. And DW7 is the only game I can think of where you actually do fight God. It's an optional battle and there's no malice between you and God when you fight him, he just wants to see how strong you are(I've never fought God in the game, I just learned this from a faq).

In Earthbound, you can only beat Gygas by praying.

People have already mentioned FFX. Final Fantasy Tactics had some pro-God content and some anti-Catholic content(I'm not Catholic, but it does tick me off whenever they're portrayed as the bad-guys).

[Rocketshipper]

Is Tales of Eternia the one that was released as Tales of Destiny 2 in America?? I have that game. It's been a long time since I played it.

I think another game tht portrays Religion in a good (or at least neutral) light is Rhapsody, a musical adventure. There a churches and priests in every town and they really don't play any big role in the plot, but at least no one ever says anything deragatory about them or religion in general ^_^.

[CDLviking]

Ressurect old topics! Yay!. I just got finished playing Xenosaga episode 2, and I could add some refrences to the topic. (warning, some spoilers)

I didn't read your post, but I almost did. If you could put in spoiler tags, instead of just a general warning, I'd appreciate it. I'm very much looking forward to playing this game over the summer. For those who don't know, spoiler tags are [ spoiler] super secret material... [/spoiler ], but withou any spaces in the brackets.

[Chosen Raven]

Is Tales of Eternia the one that was released as Tales of Destiny 2 in America??

Yeah, that's it. Because Namco decided to call it Tales of Destiny 2, instead of Tales of Eternia, we got swindled out of getting the true Tales of Destiny 2.

I think another game tht portrays Religion in a good (or at least neutral) light is Rhapsody, a musical adventure. There a churches and priests in every town and they really don't play any big role in the plot, but at least no one ever says anything deragatory about them or religion in general ^_^.

Hmmm, I might have to check out this game.