Age of the Earth and all that

Postby **Satsuki** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:43 pm

I haven't read this whole thread but according to the Baptist denomination of which I belong the Earth is 6000 years old and Evolution (EVILUTION am I rite?) is patently false. While one should have faith in this since the Bible says so, there are Baptists who practice Intelligent Design, a science to disprove evolution and make people realize we were designed by an intelligent being. Unfortunately this science has been largely rejected by the awful public school system. Public schools are hell on earth, you can't even pray and the gays own the system, they have their own alliances and recruit actively while christians are persecuted and can't even have bible groups. You can thank the liberals for this.

Postby **Mr. Rogers** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:26 pm

here is a pretty cool site that explains alot of the question's i have seen in this. http://www.creationevidence.org

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:41 am

Um, I do take a bit of offense at the Deism comment, St. Peter. I'm not angry with you or anything, but I certainly hope that wasn't how my position looked.

I said God created the laws of the universe, not that he never interferes. Do you see the difference? Just because God set it going does not mean he is seperate from the system. Of course, you know that. I'm just saying that I do too.

Oh, and by "work" I mean physically. Morally the world is pretty messed up.

Postby **Mithrandir** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:35 pm

OOh. Ooh! I believe in epoxy. Am I gonna... Oh. Sorry. I had to break in somehow. Here's the only real insight I can add at this point:

About 6 years ago, a very senior monk asked me, "If you found out that God was so smart that he set everything in motion x years ago, and saw no need to interfere, would it destroy your belief in Christ?" I said, "No, I can accept that." He then asked, "And if you learned that God was not capable of interfering, would that shake your faith." I said, "But God can do ANYTHING, right?" He responded, "Can God create an illness, that not even he can cure?"

I was stumped. I do not believe he would, but: If God IS the ultimate healer, then how do you resolve that question. My friend let me stir in my seat for a while before continuing... "There is a difference between what God CAN do, and what God WILL do." I asked, "How can we know what God will do, when I can figure out the rest?" He responded, "Will it change your beliefs, either way to learn the answer to that question?"

I said, "No, but...."

"Then why do you worry," he asked.

True story. Not that it will make any difference here...

Postby **Rashiir** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 9:23 pm

The question is illogical. God cannot do EVERYTHING, by his very being omniscient and omnipotent. Because he knows everything, he cannot make a mistake. He can, however, do everything that is logical and meaningful.

Postby **majanthehun** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 9:32 pm

okay im going to step out on a limb because i don't want to take the time to read through this WHOLE thread.

on the gap theory, i will get back to you but i can tell you that there's no biblical reasoning for that idea (sorry if im reaching way back into post time). the basics is that there was no death before the fall of adam and eve so where would the creatures that inhabited the earth before the creation have gone? also, (once again, this is off the top of my head so i may correct myself later) there is a verse that says that satan wasn't in the garden UNTIL he fell, so he couldnt have fallen and then messed up the world, then let it be created again, then tempted eve.

on the whole "dinosaur on the ark" thing- whats to stop noah from grabbing baby dinos? they eat less, they weigh less, they live longer, they are healthier etc.

there's plenty of time for all those plants/animals to be turned into oil with the weight of the flood damage on top of them.

the "six days" of genisis are literal... bugs weren't made until one day AFTER plants, so if the "day" had been thousands of years, how could the plants have pollinated themselves?

once again, sorry for the absolute confusion of this thread it's late and im tossing out random facts. i promise to be more organized later.

about God creating a rock so big he can't move it i fall upon my typical answer.... why would God WANT to create a rock so big He couldn't move it? why would He WANT to create an ilness He couldn't heal? the idea is completely irrelevant to our faith.

on the miller-urey expiriements, they only created a few amino acids (which are not alive) and half of those were BACKWARDS. their expirements included a filter which took out the poisionous elements (such as tar) that were created by their expirements, which is not realistic- there was no filter in the pools where life was said to have originated. Oxygen is too reactive to support the creation of life, and there is no evidence for an oxygen-less early earth. as a matter of fact, fossil records indicate a HIGHER percentage of O2 in early earth than what we now have.

if the big bang happened, how come some planets spin in an oppisite direction of the earth? check your centrifigal force laws.

okay WOW i wrote a lot. i'll take a bit of time off and clear my head, sorry if this post is kinda confusing...

any questions? i know a lot about this stuff. its kindof been a hobby of mine, studying creation v. evolution. i'll check this thread tomorrow, and i'll be more organized (hopefully).

Postby **Saint** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:42 pm

Well since i am the one on this thread that mentioned and holds to the "gap theory" i will respond.

I agree that no one here can 100% prove there theory, it is just us trying to figure out a bit of God's story. Thats cool, i am all about seeking out truth, and while knowing the details of how God created everything isn't necessary for me to serve him or have a relationship, it is interesting.
I am surprised more people don't give this theory a chance. It allows for all the scientific research and a literal translation of creation in Genesis. (Gotta say i would go for the bible over science, but i don't think thats the way God set it up. God put all scientific laws into motion, and holds them there. We just sometimes don't understand how science lines up with the bible, or how to interpret the bible).
First off, we know for a fact that there is a "gap" in-between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. It is in the grammar of Hebrew, i am not a professor of it myself but we do have a hebrew professor at my church with 30+ years exp. Now this grammar whatchamacallit (hehe) is there, i don't think any hebrew person will disagree with that. its just how long this gap is. you can not tell, it is just a break it could be a second or it could be a billion years. it is not specific as to how long the break is.
We do know some of the events that would have had to go on in this time, like the creation of the angels and the eventual rebellion, and fall of satan. (you can read up on this on the "antichrist" thread i believe or read bits about this in Jeremiah and Isaiah.) How long would it take for Satan to begin to harbor this lust for power in his heart and raise up a rebellion? i don't know?
Still if you go to this theory as i, the earth was created and could have had all sorts of creatures on it and they could have evolved and had dinos and every bit of the stuff from your science class. then with satans fall, God casts him down to earth. Satan and his trash the place pretty good and ruin the earth, and all life on it. The holy spirit moves across the earth and it is formless and void. then back into Genesis. I guess people just don't want to think they were second to be created but we know from other parts in the bible that the heavens and angels were created before us.
I like this theory best, because we don't doubt the word of God at all, we just realize there is more to God's character and plan than is contained in the bible. the bible is just the instructions/plan for us christians on earth.

Science, why get mad at that? they are just trying to understand God's creation from the facts. We just need to also remember that God made the laws and he bend them or break them. :grin:

Postby **EireWolf** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:28 pm

Saint wrote:...there is more to God's character and plan than is contained in the bible. the bible is just the instructions/plan for us christians on earth.

Yes! Why would we think that God would tell us everything? Our little minds couldn't contain all the truth that is, nor all of God, certainly. We must not presume to think that God has told us all there is to know, even in the Bible.

But it doesn't matter... He has told us all that is necessary for salvation. We have eternity with Him to learn the rest. :jump:

Postby **Technomancer** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:15 am

majanthehun wrote:on the miller-urey expiriements, they only created a few amino acids (which are not alive) and half of those were BACKWARDS. their expirements included a filter which took out the poisionous elements (such as tar) that were created by their expirements, which is not realistic- there was no filter in the pools where life was said to have originated. Oxygen is too reactive to support the creation of life, and there is no evidence for an oxygen-less early earth. as a matter of fact, fossil records indicate a HIGHER percentage of O2 in early earth than what we now have.

if the big bang happened, how come some planets spin in an oppisite direction of the earth? check your centrifigal force laws.

Yes, Urey-Miller only created a few amino acids, but their experiment is not the end all and be all of the field. The science has progressed since then. Also, there was no filter in either version of the experiment (spark or UV). For that matter, the toxicity of tar would also have been irrelevent- the hypothesized early atmosphere was itself pretty toxic to oxygen breathing life (Of course, to some types of microbes, oxygen itself is poisonous, and to humans under the right conditions). That the amino acids were randomly oriented is also irrelevent- the same thing happens with artificially produced sugars. From a biological perspective there's nothing to favour one orientation over the other, but to have apparatus for producing and processing both would have been redundant- hence only one such orientation is used.

As for oxygen, yes the evidence is very strong for an anoxic early Earth. In the early pre-Cambrian sedimentary deposits there exist abundant amounts of unoxidized iron (banded iron formations). In some places there are also a lot of uraninite and pyrite deposits, two minerals that oxidize readily, but are found unoxidized. These show significant weathering prior to burial, so also must have been exposed to the atmopshere. These deposits do not occur in rocks dated younger than ~2.0 billon years. Also, early paleosols (soils) from this time period contain unoxidized cerium; something that would impossible under conditions where oxygen is present. You'll find this information discussed in just about any textbook on historical geology or earth history (not to mention the relevant journals).

However, you are also mixing apples and oranges. The anoxic conditions of the early earth lasted only partway through the pre-Cambrian eon (up until the Archean), and not at all in the Phanerazoic (the last 600 million years of earth history). The higher oxygen concentrations however (as evidenced by paleosols and giant insects) seem to be limited to the Carboniferous period (sometimes split into the Pennsylvanian and Missipian by American geologists).

The big bang also has nothing whatsoever to do with planetary rotations, which I'll deal with later. BTW majan I've studied university level physics and geology (as well as some chemistry), so I really do know what I'm talking about.

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:22 am

I don't really identify with the gap theory, or do I really oppose it, but I would mention one thing. What about the gap between Genesis 1:1 and when the Earth was actually created. Note that God goes down to something he has already created; that is, things were happening already. This doesn't mention life at all, but it would add to the overall age of the Earth itself.

Postby **Technomancer** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:25 am

Okay on to the planets. First centrifugal force is of no, forgive the pun, moment to the discussion. In any event, any competent physics teacher will tell you that centrifugal force does not actually exist.

The total angular momentum of a system is conserved if there are no external forces acting on it. However, this says nothing about bodies within the system. Individually colliding planetessimals may change each other's direction of rotation. The change in angular momentum in one body is mirrored by an equal and oppoisite change in the other's: thus angular momentum is conserved.

Postby **majanthehun** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:03 am

once again, i didn't take the time to read through the whole thread so i'm not sure what has been brought up/debated since page 1 (which is as far as i got).

okay post by post... saint: you say that satan trashes the "pre vs. two earth" and destroys all life.... the bible says that there's no death before the fall of adam and eve.

you're right, wolf... i see no reason for God to have told us everything. we in our finite minds can't even understand all that he has put there right now! BUT, don't you think that if (obviously) the creation of the earth was to be such a big topic of debate among christians as well as nonchristians, don't you think God would have made things as clear as possible? why would He have left something like that out?

technomancer... i don't doubt that you know what you're talking about. i'm sure you do. i'll get back to you on your post... i'll need to read through it a few more times to fully comprehend what you're saying (lots of big words

).

your'e right, uc... there is a "gap" (the Hebrew is clear) but that doesn't mean that anything had to happen in such a gap, let alone the creation and destruction of life-forms.

okay must go to work now... i'll get back to you later.

Postby **Saint** » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:33 am

I like getting to hear everyone's thoughts. Techno always has interesting facts, and everyone's ideas cause me to think about more possibilities.
In reply to Majan, and your statement that there was no death before the fall of Adam. I would agree with that, but that also has to be looked at in perspective. That refers to man, made in God's image. it does not rule out what could have happened before it.
Truthfully i am not in opposition to the ideas of a 'Big Bang' to apply to Gen. 1:1. honestly it seems more in line for an omnipotent God to do something instantly than to drag it out over 7 days. (which i also believe for Gen. 1:2 on). I also believe in evolution as in creatures do adapt and change to better serve themselves in their environments. In fact i wouldn't even argue with people about evidence of a change in a chimp towards a more human-like animal. Yet, even though i hold to all this, i do not link it to us. i believe in a great catastrophe, like Satan and his and perhaps an Ice age, a "wiping the slate clean" by God. We know that it is not our bodies that are made in the image of God, but our souls, which will last forever. i don't mind if my body is 99.8% like some animal, because i do not think of my true self as what can be seen in the mirror.
so all this and then OUR beginning, humans made in the image of God. Living in a paradise created by God in a 7 day period of time. I call this our beginning, just not the beginning of all Gods creations. This is a general idea of the "gap" theory. To understand why God would create humans in his image and what our point is (besides to have a relationship with God) you can find some info in the "antichrist" thread. it will go into detail about Satan and different things. It may not have all the info there, but it is more stuff to think about.
Or do you feel i didn't satisfy your question Majan? I just understand you to be asking about death before Adam, but i ask who is it written to? what is the purpose of the verse? is it referring to humans created in the image of God? or to all creation, beyond our beginning? is it referring to Satan and the fallen angels? they were already sentenced? do they die? is it physical or spiritual? both? if you will spell out your question/claim i will think about it more clearly.

and i do want to think about it more, so please bring more ideas to the thread.

Postby **majanthehun** » Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:42 pm

i love seeing everyones opinions. sorry its been so long since ive replied, ive been sick. very sick.

anyways, im still rediscovering the joys of consious thought, so im a little confused on life in general. i forgot how much i hate being sick.

good points, saint. but i don't see why we need to blend the theorys of creationism and evolution. when we try to combine them, the perfect, omnipotent, omnitpresent, omniscient God that we all love just becomes a side-note; He's not responsible for creation (because we're just special slime), so why should we worship Him?

i see no postive way to compromise these two vastly different thoughts. either God did it, or random chance did.

you say that this is about how an "almighty God" created the universe- if He's almighty, why would He use evolution? why couldn't an almighty God create the world in six days somewhere between six to ten thousand years ago?

and you're right, we're not here to shake eachother or cause bitterness, this is more like practice for me (i'm going to a secular college soon). ya know, "to every man an answer"?

and with that, i go to drink some massive amounts of vitamin c and go to BED!!

Postby **uc pseudonym** » Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:14 pm

That's too bad you were/are sick, majan. And just to note that I do read this, though I have long since stopped discussing everything.

Postby **majanthehun** » Mon Sep 15, 2003 9:00 pm

im feeling better now- i called in sick on sunday and my boss called me in anyways, so i called in sick today, and my boss called me in anyways.

so i haven't had a chance to recover and feel better. although, one of my coworkers brought me some orange juice and a coupla cough drops- he totoally brightened my day.

Age of the Earth and all that

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