A serious question

[Shadrack]

ok, sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to start trouble, especially in light of what's been going on here the past few days, but I have a serious question.

A lot of what's on this board is stuff along the lines of "Is this anime ok to watch?". At first, I understood why you wouldn't want to watch something that goes against your beliefs- I know if I had strong beliefs I'd probably feel the same way. But then I got to thinking- the main reason not to watch stuff like that is that it might give you non-christian ideas. Now, I don't see how this would be a problem unless you acted on the or enjoyed them- basicly, it's only a problem if it makes you un-christian.

But this is a board full of people who believe themselves to be saved and that christ is the lord, and that god loves them. So are you really that scared that an anime is powerful enough to actually take away your faith? It seems that if a cartoon has enough power to forsake the mots important thing in your life, you have issues with your faith that simply avoiding un-christian things won't solve.

I really am curious what the logic behind this is. To be honest, I'm sort of baffled. If a tv show can make you stop loving god, then are you sure you really love him in the first place?

[LorentzForce]

look at my avatar and tell me; aren't you thinking a little bit into people being a sterotype?

so if i change your words, you're saying that watching hentai and listening to pr0n with lyrics is perfectly acceptable, for everyone in this world.

[Shadrack]

[quote="LorentzForce"]look at my avatar and tell me]

well, assuming you're not talking about a very little kid, I don't see why not. If you only let yourself ever come into contact with christian things, you nver give yourself the chance to question your faith. And faith is CHOOSING to believe in something despite a lack of evidence. Without the choice to not believe, it's not faith at all. So to really believe in christ you would have to let yourself question your faith everyday, instead of cutting yourself off from things that might make you forsake it.

faith without temptation not to believe isn't faith at all, it's just a worldview without alternatives.

[LorentzForce]

you lost the exact point; you can't choose to be a Christian. only when the Holy Sprit enters your heart after accepting Jesus truly, and only then, will you become a Christian.

and why would i want to question my faith when i already am in contact with earthly sins every single day? why would i be bothered enough to sin even further and carry even more scars?

i doubt chicks dig scars in heaven.

[Shadrack]

[quote="LorentzForce"]you lost the exact point]

If you can't choose to be christian, then how can god punish unbelievers? it's not their fault.

[Technomancer]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. From my perspective faith is choosing. We are all drawn by God yes, but it is a matter of free choice whether we accept this draw or not. Moreover, it is a lifelong issue, not an irrevocable event.

I also think that not only is questioning our faith inevitable, but it is sometimes also valuable and necessary.

[LorentzForce]

of course it is, don't you realise that most of the 'unbelivers' had the chance to see what God is like, and the chances could have meant that God would have allowed them to Christians?

for example, if you're not a Christian which i think so, look at you. you have the chance to become a Christian, and attempt to become one, through prayer and trying to contact God. but you clearly don't. isn't that ignorance? isn't that sin?

Jesus is there because no one will ever get out of sinning. Jesus sacrificed Himself for people. He died for us. there is no any other way of going to heaven. or else, can you honest say that you have never sinned in God's eyes?

or do you think you're not sinning by following your 'human' conscience?

[shooraijin]

> faith without temptation not to believe isn't faith at all, it's just a worldview without alternatives.

This is an intriguing statement, but you should also note we've had a significant troll invasion lately and people are little more itchy right now.

I'm sure almost all of us have come in contact with, been exposed to, or even sought out stuff we knew wasn't Christian, for whatever reason. I'll admit my guilt on this point, for one.

On the other hand, reckless and dangerous behaviour is just silly. I'm not going to go jump off a cliff just to see if it's any better than staying on top of it, or binge-drink myself into liver failure to see if it's any better than being sober. The same applies for reckless and dangerous spiritual behaviour. I'm not going to seek out materials and media that don't reflect Christ's light in me just to see if it's any better, or more fun. I think our spiritual priorities have to come first.

And lest you ask why I'd let myself get into something like a relationship with God, it's because He asked me to, and I chose to.

Also, I think you should clarify what you're asking: are you asking about alternatives to Christ the religion, or asking about alternative moral standards to Christ? The questions are different.

You are not the first person to ask such questions, and we have definitely been answering a lot of them lately. If you're truly interested, there are many excellent replies on recent threads. They are easy to find.

[LorentzForce]

the choice occurs when you wish to follow God's words and live in His name, or live like you used to but still acquiring God's gift of eternal life.

[edit] of course, why would you want to be rude in front of someone who you love? like God? i think that's why Christians, even if they don't necessarily have to, live as 'good', following God's words. NOT just go whereever, disappointing God all the time.

[Shadrack]

of course it is, don't you realise that most of the 'unbelivers' had the chance to see what God is like, and the chances could have meant that God would have allowed them to Christians?

for example, if you're not a Christian which i think so, look at you. you have the chance to become a Christian, and attempt to become one, through prayer and trying to contact God. but you clearly don't. isn't that ignorance? isn't that sin?

Jesus is there because no one will ever get out of sinning. Jesus sacrificed Himself for people. He died for us. there is no any other way of going to heaven. or else, can you honest say that you have never sinned in God's eyes?

or do you think you're not sinning by following your 'human' conscience?

but if I feel no pull from the holy spirit, then why should I be condemned for not believing in christ? you just told me that I can't choose to be christian. only the holy spirit can make me one if it comes to me

[Link Antilles]

God tests our faith, we don't test our faith by going to sin.

[shooraijin]

> only the holy spirit can make me one if it comes to me

The Holy Spirit doesn't make anyone anything. Why would God want a legion of mindless automatons?

The Holy Spirit gives you the choice, and you choose -- He's making no choices for you.

It was many years of Christ chasing me before I said yes, and in many aspects He's still cleaning up a lot of things I'm saying no to Him on.

[LorentzForce]

but if I feel no pull from the holy spirit, then why should I be condemned for not believing in christ? you just told me that I can't choose to be christian. only the holy spirit can make me one if it comes to me

all i can ask is, have to tried? have to tried and trembled so much that you bleed from your eyes from crying too much, praying to God so He can accept you? have to been shaken up so much that you'd feel like mangling yourself just so God can answer you? have you been rolling around, asking for that gift that everyone so wants?

again, have you tried?

[Shadrack]

all i can ask is, have to tried? have to tried and trembled so much that you bleed from your eyes from crying too much, praying to God so He can accept you? have to been shaken up so much that you'd feel like mangling yourself just so God can answer you? have you been rolling around, asking for that gift that everyone so wants?

again, have you tried?

but to be fair, I would have to do this for every religion in the world, assuming that right now I have no religion myself. Just from a logistics point of view, there is no way every single person could try out every single religion, so the poor folks who happen to put christianity at the bottom of the list (not for any reason, just bad luck) will be doomed. this doesn't seem right.

[LorentzForce]

it seems quite right to me. afterall, they DO know what Christianity is. why leave it at the bottom of the pile?

again, you cannot choose any other religion and worship them if you are a Christian. not like anything else will change a Christian's mind anyway. but i know that learning other cultures is good for you.

anyways, i will ask again. have to tried?

it's fortunate for the already Christians because we received and understood the gift so easily. that, I thank God for it. i didn't have to roll around outside to get the gift. phew

[Shadrack]

it seems quite right to me. afterall, they DO know what Christianity is. why leave it at the bottom of the pile?

again, you cannot choose any other religion and worship them if you are a Christian. not like anything else will change a Christian's mind anyway. but i know that learning other cultures is good for you.

anyways, i will ask again. have to tried?

it's fortunate for the already Christians because we received and understood the gift so easily. that, I thank God for it. i didn't have to roll around outside to get the gift. phew

I don't think you see what I'm saying. If the holy spirit has not come to be, christianity is no better than islam is no better than taoism is no better than rastafarianism is no better than the cult of aum. I need to look at each one and examine it to see if it calls to me. If christianity is true like you say, then it'll call to me and there will be no problem. but UNTIL IT DOES, there is no reason for me to examine it before any other. Just as a lot of you are big fans of christianity, every single other religion has people who try to tell me "try my religion first", and if I don't believe in any of them yet, they all make equally good arguements.

so it's simply not fair to those who by bad luck put christianity at the bottom of the list. they might even have become christians if they had more time.

[shooraijin]

> I need to look at each one and examine it to see if it calls to me.

Let's run with that and say that you find one that "calls to you."

1) What do you call "calling"?
2) What will you do if, assuming you can answer #1, you get such a signal?
3) Are you prepared to make that commitment for the rest of your existence? And be careful saying yes.

If the calling #1 were true, and you choose to make a lifelong commitment to whatever made your calling obvious #2, there should be no problem with #3.

[LorentzForce]

see? you're ignoring it already. you already know about Christianity, but is just rejecting it simply because you can't be bothered to try. simply because you're lazy. simply because you _think_ that there are other religions out there that can be true. why would any other religion that forces you to give up something be worthwhile to do BEFORE you pray to God?

again, you have not tried. you're assuming you're important in this world, but really, you aren't. to God you're important, but that's for God to decide to let you in Heaven or not, not yours.

[Shadrack]

> I need to look at each one and examine it to see if it calls to me.

Let's run with that and say that you find one that "calls to you."

1) What do you call "calling"?
2) What will you do if, assuming you can answer #1, you get such a signal?
3) Are you prepared to make that commitment for the rest of your existence? And be careful saying yes.

If the calling #1 were true, and you choose to make a lifelong commitment to whatever made your calling obvious #2, there should be no problem with #3.

but what I'm saying is, what if the list is so long I never get to have christianity call to me?

[Shadrack]

see? you're ignoring it already. you already know about Christianity, but is just rejecting it simply because you can't be bothered to try. simply because you're lazy. simply because you _think_ that there are other religions out there that can be true. why would any other religion that forces you to give up something be worthwhile to do BEFORE you pray to God?

again, you have not tried. you're assuming you're important in this world, but really, you aren't. to God you're important, but that's for God to decide to let you in Heaven or not, not yours.

no, you're ignoring what I'm saying. It's mighty arrogant of you to assume people should accept your religion because YOU SAY SO. Every other relgion has people just like you telling me to join them, so what makes christianity different than any other? I don't see why I should rely on someone else's opinion for something as deeply personal as religion. In fact, if I chose a relgion without examing other just because someone told me to, it would be cheating not only myself but god. Picking christianity out of thousands of other religions is shows a lot more faith than picking it out of 2 or 3.

I;m not lazy, I just don't see any reason why, if at this point the hold spirit doesn't speak to me, I should examine christianity before other religions.

[shooraijin]

> what if the list is so long I never get to have christianity call to me?

You're advancing the old 'what about those people who have never heard of Christ' argument. The Bible is silent on what happens, except for some verses in Hebrews that may or may not have anything to say. I personally believe that there's special dispensation for these people, but I don't have any grounding for it, and I won't go further.

It's immaterial to your question in any event. God *has* made Himself known to you, even if you don't think He has. You wouldn't be asking these questions if you weren't aware of Christianity and of what Christ offers, right? You don't think that's the beginnings of a call, right there? That's the whole point of evangelism, after all.

And here's a heretical point for you to consider. I don't like the reasoning behind it, but you might roll this around in your head and see what you come up with. Every religion considers Christianity an equally valid path to God, as every other religion makes no argument of exclusivity. Hinduism doesn't care. It's the same god in Judaism. Shintoism, Buddhism ... do the right things and you're golden, nee? Even hypertheistic religions such as Islam are based on the God of Abraham, nee? If so, why *not* believe in Christianity? We're the only ones saying Christ is the only way to salvation. If we're wrong, you'd be okay anyway, right?

As a Christian, I find that kind of reasoning to be arguing from the wrong side of the equation, but since you asked about Christianity relative to other religions, what do *you* think?

[Shadrack]

> what if the list is so long I never get to have christianity call to me?

You're advancing the old 'what about those people who have never heard of Christ' argument. The Bible is silent on what happens, except for some verses in Hebrews that may or may not have anything to say. I personally believe that there's special dispensation for these people, but I don't have any grounding for it, and I won't go further.

It's immaterial to your question in any event. God *has* made Himself known to you, even if you don't think He has. You wouldn't be asking these questions if you weren't aware of Christianity and of what Christ offers, right? You don't think that's the beginnings of a call, right there? That's the whole point of evangelism, after all.

And here's a heretical point for you to consider. I don't like the reasoning behind it, but you might roll this around in your head and see what you come up with. Every religion considers Christianity an equally valid path to God, as every other religion makes no argument of exclusivity. Hinduism doesn't care. It's the same god in Judaism. Shintoism, Buddhism ... do the right things and you're golden, nee? Even hypertheistic religions such as Islam are based on the God of Abraham, nee? If so, why *not* believe in Christianity? We're the only ones saying Christ is the only way to salvation. If we're wrong, you'd be okay anyway, right?

As a Christian, I find that kind of reasoning to be arguing from the wrong side of the equation, but since you asked about Christianity relative to other religions, what do *you* think?

but by that logic I could choose to be about a hundred different eastern religions and have 100x the coverage

[LorentzForce]

[quote="Shadrack"]no, you're ignoring what I'm saying. It's mighty arrogant of you to assume people should accept your religion because YOU SAY SO. Every other relgion has people just like you telling me to join them, so what makes christianity different than any other? I don't see why I should rely on someone else's opinion for something as deeply personal as religion. In fact, if I chose a relgion without examing other just because someone told me to, it would be cheating not only myself but god. Picking christianity out of thousands of other religions is shows a lot more faith than picking it out of 2 or 3.

I]

arrogant? more like confident.

and why do i, personnally, say that Christianity is right? because i have experienced it. i have received the good parts of it. as far as i know, there aren't any religion out there that gives so much freedom and joy as Christianity. take it from someone who had his mother country rebelling in the last century, and is still the only divided country in the world.

and as i said, only God will choose whether you'll be a follower of God or not. you can't just barge in and say "I'm a Christian now!!!!111" and become a Christian instantly. so in turn, you're just losing yourself more and more chances.

[shooraijin]

> but by that logic I could choose to be about a hundred different eastern religions and have 100x the coverage

Read what I wrote. What is so different about Christianity that we state Jesus is the only way, and everyone else says Christianity is another way to God, too? What makes us special? Why *not* Christ?

[LorentzForce]

but by that logic I could choose to be about a hundred different eastern religions and have 100x the coverage

it doesn't work like that. 'covering' another religion is same as going 'i love every parent in the world so i'll get half a million of parents and scab all the pocket money through that way!'. do you know how stupid that sounds?

[shooraijin]

> it doesn't work like that. 'covering' another religion is same as going 'i love every parent in the world so i'll get half a million of parents and scab all the pocket money through that way!'. do you know how stupid that sounds?

The argument I'm trying to make with him is that if he's really serious about wanting to investigate all religions and see which ones "call" to him, the shortcut is Christ. It's the universal in. He has his answer already, because every other religion either actively accepts its validity as a means towards God, or does not actively reject it.

So, I'm still asking, given that you have one road to try, all you have to say is yes. Why *not* Christ? What have you got to lose?

[LorentzForce]

shooraijin, you have a good point.

you know what? it's 2:30am now, and i have my yearlies test tomorrow. laters i'm gone.

[Shadrack]

> but by that logic I could choose to be about a hundred different eastern religions and have 100x the coverage

Read what I wrote. What is so different about Christianity that we state Jesus is the only way, and everyone else says Christianity is another way to God, too? What makes us special? Why *not* Christ?

because if I choose christianity, I can ONLY be christian. If other religions allow additional paths to salvation, then I can choose mutltiples. I can be buhddist AND taoist AND hindu and so on..... why NOT all these others? that way if any of them are correct I'll be ok.

and you know, I doubt you'd be hard pressed to find many serious jews or muslims who say christ will get you into heavan.......

[Shadrack]

arrogant? more like confident.

and why do i, personnally, say that Christianity is right? because i have experienced it. i have received the good parts of it. as far as i know, there aren't any religion out there that gives so much freedom and joy as Christianity. take it from someone who had his mother country rebelling in the last century, and is still the only divided country in the world.

and as i said, only God will choose whether you'll be a follower of God or not. you can't just barge in and say "I'm a Christian now!!!!111" and become a Christian instantly. so in turn, you're just losing yourself more and more chances.

but every relgion has people like you, so you saying that is no more valid to me than a muslim or such telling me that.

[Ashley]

I can see this is quite the touchy thread.
I've heard your argument before Shadrack, and here's the best answer I can give.
You already know something about Christianity, obviously, because you're here. That's a good start, and eventually you'll have to decide whether this is the "religion for you" or not--in other words, will you accept Christ or not? But I encourage you to find out what you're accepting or rejecting and why, and that's not something you can have answered for you.
As to the "why Christianity", think on this:
All other religions in the world are based on what you can do to get to God: sacrifices, rules, etc. Christianity is about what God did to get to you. Secondly, say I'm wrong. Say everyone here is wrong. There really is no savior, Christ was not God, and there is no hell. Then what have we lost? If there is no savior, there is no reason to be saved, and when we die, we'll all just sit there. Fall asleep and never wake up. We've really lost nothing.
But say we are right. There really is a heaven and a hell and Christ was the only way. Well then, we've gained everything, and it is you the unbeliever that has lost all.

I hope this helps. If you have any specific questions you're more than welcome to pm me.