Please help me out with something

[Cleanedbyblood]

I am in the middle of a debate with a friend of mine on Facebook. He happens to be an atheist and seems to refuse to accept God's existence. I am not good at presenting my case in support of Him. Debate has never been my best subject.

Please pray that I can find the words to say or if you know where I can find some information. Thanks

[Atria35]

Well, the big problem with God is that...

You can't prove it. There is no evidence except pure belief in the Bible and personal incidents that can support the existence of God. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is true, and without literally transplanting your memories into his brain, he can't have the personal experiences you have.

It's really best to let this one go. Neither side can win this sort of debate if you're going purely on logic.

[AndrewinIce]

Go online and buy 'The Case for the Creator' by Lee Strobel. Also, try 'The case for Christianity' by the same guy. Both of these will help you in the future.

However, if you need something now, you can point out that you think it is more logical that their is a Intelligent Creator rather than life forming from Chance.
The possibility of all the right ingredients for life suddenly coming together and forming the right way has a chance of happening 1 and an insanely long number with OVER ONE HUNDRED ZEROS!

However, I offer two experiments you may present to him. The first is tell him to take a a watch, any working watch. Tell him to dismantle it, until every piece is on its own. Then, tell him to put it in a bag and shake it around. Then ask him to shake the bag with the watch pieces in it for however long he feels it needs to come together and start working right and be right about the time of day. (Test courtesy of Mark Lowry)

The second experiment is more simply and faster. Set a glass on one side of you house or another one story building. Wet a napkin, and get on the other side of the building. Then, throw it over the house. What are the chances that it will land in?

This also comes with a thought problem-The chances of the napkin landing in the glass is about as big as life forming on its own, but lets say for a moment he throws it, He walks around the house, and the napkin has landed in the glass, ask him to ponder this; Did it land in on its own, or did someone walk by and put it in? He was not able to see the glass, and thus, it could have put it on by a person. Or rather, an intelligent Creator.

I know there are holes in experiments, but no more than there are in other atheistic experiment's.

[Atria35]

I know there are holes in experiments, but no more than there are in other atheistic experiment's.

Actually, those experiements have logic holes in them. A shaken watch doesn't have the same physical reaction as chemical molecules, etc, so it's not an apt analogy. And the one-in-a-million chance is explained by us not having found aliens yet... so we were the one in a million, but it happened. So if this is an intelligent aetheist, these analogies will be pointless - will not prove a thing.

Also, you are using the word 'aetheistic' incorrectly. What you mean is 'scientific'. These things are not one and the same, as Christians often use scientific experiments to prove things in the Bible.

[MangaRocks!]

Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ and The Case For The Real Jesus are excellent. And if you're really looking to debate with logic, you can't get any more logical than Dr. Jason Lisle's The Ultimate Proof Of Creation (which actually deals with the laws of logic themselves, among other things). I own all three of those myself, and highly recommend them (especially the latter one).

Also, a fantastic apologetics resource site is AnswersInGenesis.org.

Hope that helps (though please feel free to PM me if you'd like any more recommendations ), and I'll be praying for your friend.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

It's not about proving God to people. It's about showing God to people by the way you live. Don't focus on being a moral person for God, but focus on being a loving person for God. What changes peoples' hearts is Love, not debate. I think it's wiser (and better for yourself) to focus on "being" God to people instead of "proving" God to people. There you will see more fruits. Be for them and pray for them when their days are bad. Share good days with them. Focus not on your differences but your commonalities. Just be a good friend to them. That's all.

That being said if you're going to seriously delve into the topic of religious philosophy, books by Lee Strobel or apologetics in general won't suit you. Apologetics (and its opponent: New Atheism), for the most part, is all a joke and an insult to religious philosophy.

[AndrewinIce]

Actually, those experiements have logic holes in them. A shaken watch doesn't have the same physical reaction as chemical molecules, etc, so it's not an apt analogy. And the one-in-a-million chance is explained by us not having found aliens yet... so we were the one in a million, but it happened. So if this is an intelligent aetheist, these analogies will be pointless - will not prove a thing.

Also, you are using the word 'aetheistic' incorrectly. What you mean is 'scientific'. These things are not one and the same, as Christians often use scientific experiments to prove things in the Bible.

But the watch has how many pieces? What are the chances it will come together? They are a lot better than life forming.

I do not think any 'intelligent' atheist will look to aliens to discredit a anything.

'Proving' is impossible. It is impossible to prove God exists, and it is impossible to prove he does not. But if we build a case for him, a strong case, then we match the atheists.

'Scientific experiment' could be done by a Christian, atheist, Muslim, etc. while 'atheistic experiments' is a experiment performed by atheists. I am saying the experiment performed by atheists is just as flawed.

[MrKrillz0r]

I would once again this week recommend listening to Dr.Ravi Zacharias, Tim Keller and RC Sproul and more. These guys are great if you want to know a bit more about this new wave of atheism that came with Darwin, Hitchens etc. and questions about God in general.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHlrMRJAo (Tim Keller)

Though I'd advice to actually pray to God for help and wisdom about this matter.

Matthew 7:8 "For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

[Atria35]

'Proving' is impossible. It is impossible to prove God exists, and it is impossible to prove he does not. But if we build a case for him, a strong case, then we match the atheists.

This is true. But no matter what you say about likelihood and probability mean very little to an aetheist, because there are ways of explaining probabilities. That's why I'm with Smartypants - without scientific proof of God, then it's best to live out God and His will through your life and actions.

'Scientific experiment' could be done by a Christian, atheist, Muslim, etc. while 'atheistic experiments' is a experiment performed by atheists. I am saying the experiment performed by atheists is just as flawed.

No. Scientific experiments are scientific experiments no matter if someone religious or an aetheist does them. You need to go to a dictionary to look up the word 'science', because the experiments and results do not change based on who does them (unless the experiment is flawed, but that's another tangent).

[AndrewinIce]

This is true. But no matter what you say about likelihood and probability mean very little to an aetheist, because there are ways of explaining probabilities. That's why I'm with Smartypants - without scientific proof of God, then it's best to live out God and His will through your life and actions.



No. Scientific experiments are scientific experiments no matter if someone religious or an aetheist does them. You need to go to a dictionary to look up the word 'science', because the experiments and results do not change based on who does them (unless the experiment is flawed, but that's another tangent).

But speaking in a language atheist themselves use is a good way to make them realize that Intelligent Design is not just some superstition.

I know that, but I was specifying the intent of the experiments.

[Sheenar]

It's not about proving God to people. It's about showing God to people by the way you live. Don't focus on being a moral person for God, but focus on being a loving person for God. What changes peoples' hearts is Love, not debate. I think it's wiser (and better for yourself) to focus on "being" God to people instead of "proving" God to people. There you will see more fruits. Be for them and pray for them when their days are bad. Share good days with them. Focus not on your differences but your commonalities. Just be a good friend to them. That's all.

Very much so. This is where I feel some get caught up too much in debate, proofs, etc. The focus should be on being Christ-like and being a friend to people --meeting their needs, walking through life with them, etc.

[Rusty Claymore]

Hey CbyB! It's a little past your original post, but I do pray God will help you as you talk with your friend.

Debate is not my strong suit by any means, but in my own experiences, debates don't really do much for convincing the everyday people I come across. Could be cause I'm just bad at it, but I believe people say what they think, but live what they believe.

In that light, it's more likely to display God's power and reality in a changed/different life than to rely soley on words. Even in science words don't carry any meaning unless backed by repeatable experimentation.

And ultimately, our job as Christians is to inform. It's is God who convicts and concvinces, so the only thing you need to keep in check is your heart before God.

ガオ。。。Haha, like I said I'm not good with words, but I hope this helps! >_n

[SierraLea]

My advice, don't be pushy. If he's asking about it, answer. If he's trying to prove you wrong, defend. Do Not Attack.
I have debated with atheists before, and they did not want to be preached too.
Proving God exsists is logically possible, like St. Thomas Aquinas's Five Proofs. I think the best way is through actions a lot of the time. However, I understand that that's not really possible online. I would try to show him that God adds something to the act of living, because that's what he might find is lacking in his own life.
I would also find out why he's an atheist. That could determine your stratagy.