The Sabbath Day

[fermy6]

When is the Sabbath day....Is it Saturday or Sunday?

[Atria35]

I know that if you're Jewish, it's traditionally on Saturday. Christians tend to view Sunday as the Sabbath.

[Rusty Claymore]

The Seventh day. There is a lot of argument on this point, but I think all of it misses the whole reason behind it. God was setting an example through the Creation week for us to follow. Work 6 Days, rest the Seventh. So it could be any day, Monday, tues, etc. Unfortunately most jobs function via obscure shifts and random day's off, which imho contributes to the communities overall angst. XP

[AnimeGirl]

Sabbath is Saturday. And it's important to observe, because God specially "set it apart" meaning on this day we should rest and spend time with Him. When something is set apart, it means it's special (made holy), and it cannot just be any day. Plus it's the fourth commandment, where it says specifically on the seventh day you shall rest.

Now, I am not here to start an arguement, I am just simply stating the meaning behind it, and in no way am I against anyone who goes to church on Sunday

[Nate]

*ahem*

The Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday. The reason for this is Genesis describes the passing of days as "There was evening, then there was morning." Therefore days begin at night, and so the Sabbath begins shortly after sunset on Friday evening, and ends shortly after sunset on Saturday evening.

But Rusty is pretty much right. They didn't have named days back in the time of Israel, so there isn't a specific "day." Just pick a day, name that the Sabbath, and be done with it. XD If you even wanna observe the Sabbath, of course. Remember Paul said that the Sabbath doesn't have to be observed if you don't want to.

On another note, I looked at Jewish restrictions against "work" on the Sabbath. Pretty interesting! Jews aren't allowed to use cars on the Sabbath. "The automobile is powered by an internal combustion engine, which operates by burning gasoline and oil, a clear violation of the Torah prohibition against kindling a fire. In addition, the movement of the car would constitute transporting an object in the public domain, another violation of a Torah prohibition, and in all likelihood the car would be used to travel a distance greater than that permitted by rabbinical prohibitions. For all these reasons, and many more, the use of an automobile on Shabbat is clearly not permitted."

However, it does mention that if it is necessary to save a person's life, any prohibition on the Sabbath may be ignored. So if your dad has a heart attack, it's perfectly fine to drive him to the hospital even though use of a car is normally prohibited.

[Yamamaya]

The Sabbath is on the 7th day, aka Saturday. There is no verse in the Bible that even remotely suggests that it was ever Sunday or that it was ever changed to Sunday. The Sunday is referred to as "The Lord's Day" once in the context of Jesus' ressurection but it is never proclaimed as a replacement.

As to whether we should still keep it or not, that depends on how one keeps it and your interpretation of various parts of the New Covenant.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Remember Paul said that the Sabbath doesn't have to be observed if you don't want to.

Citation, please?

[AnimeGirl]

@Nate; Yeah, I forgot to mention it starts on Friday night and ends Saturday night XD!!! I mean, I keep it that way, so I should know! As to how it is kept, driving your car isn't wrong. Basically, how Jesus kept the Sabbath is how we should keep it, as He is meant to be an example to us.

The Sabbath is on the 7th day, aka Saturday. There is no verse in the Bible that even remotely suggests that it was ever Sunday or that it was ever changed to Sunday. The Sunday is referred to as "The Lord's Day" once in the context of Jesus' ressurection but it is never proclaimed as a replacement.

As to whether we should still keep it or not, that depends on how one keeps it and your interpretation of various parts of the New Covenant.

Couldn't agree more! I always say "what you do is between you and God" and I'm not one to determine how He convicts other people. I know I have been sort of not keeping Sabbath the way I should, but I am working on that. It's important to me, especially since I know more about how it works. Some people have turned it into a day of dread when it's suppose to be the day you look forward to!

[ShiroiHikari]

Well, they didn't even have the Gregorian calendar like we do, so the names "Saturday" and "Sunday" were never mentioned in scripture in the first place to my knowledge.

[Nate]

Citation, please?

I thought everyone and their brother had read Romans 14, but sure, here you go.

One person considers one day more sacred than another]As to how it is kept, driving your car isn't wrong. Basically, how Jesus kept the Sabbath is how we should keep it[/QUOTE]
Jesus didn't drive a car. ;D *joke response*

Again, I'm going off what Jewish websites say. Since kindling a fire is prohibited to them, then driving a car is (because the combustion engine works by burning gas). They're also not allowed to write more than two letters, or erase more than two letters. Remember that the Jewish restrictions on Sabbath are much more restrictive than it is for Christians.

And again, devout Jews do say if you're helping people or saving lives, the prohibitions don't apply. In other words, they're not like the Pharisees who got mad at Jesus for healing people on the Sabbath. True, devout Jews would agree that what Jesus was doing would be completely fine.

EDIT:

So in the original context, what do they actually mean by "seventh day"?

It's a reference to Genesis 1 and Creation. God created the world on six days, and on the seventh day He rested. The Sabbath is in honor of God's rest on the seventh day. So the Israelites would work for six days and rest on the seventh. This is why it is the seventh day that is the Sabbath, and not a specific named day in the times of the OT. After the Gregorian calendar was created, they just picked a day and went with it, and Saturday was the best pick since Saturday is usually the "seventh" day on calendars.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

[quote="Nate (post: 1453136)"]One person considers one day more sacred than another]This doesn't have to be about the Sabbath. Surely Paul would have specifically mentioned it, right? Because saying something like that contradicts the Decalogue and also Christ (I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it). The above passage could be interpreted to be about religious holidays and festivals without doing violence to the text, and such an interpretation would help keep Scripture and Christian theology (somewhat) coherent.

[Nate]

Except the commandment says "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." Emphasis mine. Paul specifically says hey, some people don't think particularly days are holy, that's fine. Okay, he says "sacred" but same thing really. If you don't think that the Sabbath day is any more sacred or holy than any other day, Paul says whatever, you're not condemned, don't worry about it, just be true to yourself.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

If you don't think that the Sabbath day is any more sacred or holy than any other day, Paul says whatever...don't worry about it

Except he doesn't say that. He says that some consider one day (not necessarily the Sabbath here) more holy and others do not. Your interpretation is that the passage is about the Sabbath, but there is nothing in the passage that says this is so. You might have always thought it was about the Sabbath day, but, again, we are not forced to this conclusion by the passage itself. As I previously stated, I find it much likelier that Paul was referring to religious holidays and festivals, rather than effectively saying, "Screw what Moses [remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy] and Jesus [ I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it] said."

[mechana2015]

You keep mentioning the "I came not to abolish the law" verse. What is your full interpretation of what it means? So far all you've used it for is to cancel out another interpretation without explaining why it's capable of doing that.

[Nate]

Sigh. Paul was talking to Gentiles, remember? He was writing to new churches, not to Jews. Gentiles didn't have a Sabbath day. Jews did. This is like the circumcision thing. Remember that argument? And in the end it was decided that Gentiles didn't have to get circumcised. It was the heart that mattered. Despite how completely important this was to the Jews, so important that it was a sign of their covenant with God, it didn't matter. It didn't have to be done.

So maybe the church in Romans was observing the Sabbath. They see some other church not. They start to complain hey, these guys, not observing the Sabbath. What a bunch of jerks. Paul says hey, if they don't want to have a Sabbath, they don't have to. It's their own business. You're not required to have a Sabbath.

After all, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, right? So if you don't want to observe the Sabbath, no harm, no foul.

I'd get into what I was debating with Septimus on in the blood/fat thread (about how we're not under the Law anymore) but I don't think that was going anywhere there, and probably best not to debate it here either. We've pretty much answered the question of when the Sabbath is, anyway.

EDIT: I agree with mech. You say Jesus didn't abolish the Law. Do you keep kosher? Do you avoid shaving? Do you not wear shirts that are made of anything other than 100% material? Do you get a priest to examine your house if your shower has mildew? I may be getting a little rude here, I'm sorry if I am. But your statement doesn't make sense to me.

[Cognitive Gear]

Except he doesn't say that. He says that some consider one day (not necessarily the Sabbath here) more holy and others do not. Your interpretation is that the passage is about the Sabbath, but there is nothing in the passage that says this is so. You might have always thought it was about the Sabbath day, but, again, we are not forced to this conclusion by the passage itself. As I previously stated, I find it much likelier that Paul was referring to religious holidays and festivals, rather than effectively saying, "Screw what Moses [remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy] and Jesus [ I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it] said."

I don't know if I agree with this, but I certainly like it. It would give me a Biblical justification for my insistence on having one non-work/school day a week.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

You keep mentioning the "I came not to abolish the law" verse. What is your full interpretation of what it means? So far all you've used it for is to cancel out another interpretation without explaining why it's capable of doing that.

Here I am simply employing it to illustrate that I believe Christ's teachings do not contradict the Torah. However, I am aware that this is a rich passage, and there exist many layers of interpretation of it.

Sigh. Paul was talking to Gentiles, remember? He was writing to new churches, not to Jews. Gentiles didn't have a Sabbath day. Jews did.

That's a very fair point. I am a bit too focused on one verse rather than big-picture stuff. Hmm. I will think about this a bit more. Thanks, Nate.

For the record, I am kind of doing theology by the seat of my pants here rather than speaking from well-considered opinions =).

[Nate]

For the record, I am kind of doing theology by the seat of my pants here rather than speaking from well-considered opinions =).

Hey that's how I do it!

[TheSubtleDoctor]

It would give me a Biblical justification for my insistence on having one non-work/school day a week.

Does Hebrews 4:9-11 count here as well =)?

So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Hey that's how I do it!

Darn, and I was trying to be original!

[mechana2015]

Here I am simply employing it to illustrate that I believe Christ's teachings do not contradict the Torah. However, I am aware that this is a rich passage, and there exist many layers of interpretation of it.That's a very fair point.

I'd suggest you come up with an explanation then, since I have been given an explanation for that fragment of a verse and it does NOT support what you are attempting to use it for. Please, back it up or stop using a fragment of a verse like it contains a commonly known truth. All it will do is confuse people that aren't well read in the bible and muddle the discussion to the point where people who don't have academic theological backgrounds can't figure out the intentions of the participants.

I'm requesting clarity and well thought out answers here, especially when bible text is being thrown around.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

I'd suggest you come up with an explanation then,

Yikes. That was a bit aggressive.

since I have been given an explanation for that fragment of a verse and it does NOT support what you are attempting to use it for.

I would be interested to hear your views.

Please, back it up or stop using a fragment of a verse like it contains a commonly known truth.

Again, ouch. You're being kinda harsh, eh? We'd be here all day though if everyone comprehensively defended and argued each bit of their views. No one should take my words to heart]I'm requesting clarity and well thought out answers here, especially when bible text is being thrown around.[/QUOTE]I don't think my interpretation violates any of your criteria, though you may disagree with it or think it is shallow...which is fine. But, I don't think you can accuse my interpretation of being dumb or vague. Again, I'd like to hear your own views on the subject.

[Nate]

I will say, Doc, that while I think your interpretation of what Paul is saying in Romans 14 is perfectly valid (that he's not talking about Sabbath, but general holy days) I think the verse you quoted from Matthew 5 is a pretty poor defense of that interpretation. Just sayin'.

I mean, you think that Paul isn't talking about the Sabbath, he's talking about holidays and celebrations, right? Well, be convinced in your own mind. :p It doesn't need justification or defense. Believe it and if someone asks, just say "I think it's good, that's all that should be said." XD

But yeah, I've always taken that passage to be about holidays and Sabbath, because again, I figure we're not under the Law of Moses, we're under God's grace, so the Sabbath is a totally voluntary thing. I'm not knocking the Sabbath, of course. The Sabbath is definitely a good thing to be sure.

[mechana2015]

My opinion is that the verse is related to the laws that are espoused in the remainder of chapter 5, 6 and most of 7. The piece you were throwing around is but half of a sentence in the middle of a 3 chapter sermon, the contents of which you are clearly ignoring since you are applying it to as far as I can see, one of the few topics that isn't even addressed in the entire sermon.

[Furen]

The sabbath day in current times is the one day you set aside to honour God, it doesn't have to be a weekend, though most say Saturday from what I've seen.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

My opinion is that the verse is related to the laws that are espoused in the remainder of chapter 5, 6 and most of 7. The piece you were throwing around is but half of a sentence in the middle of a 3 chapter sermon, the contents of which you are clearly ignoring since you are applying it to as far as I can see, one of the few topics that isn't even addressed in the entire sermon.

I'm not ignoring the rest of the Sermon on the Mount at all. I just didn't feel it had much to do with the issue at hand. I'm sorry you feel like just b/c I didn't mention the rest that I ignored it. I don't think I said anything earlier that contradicted the rest of the sermon?

OK then, questions.

(1) Christ says He didn't come to abolish the Law (capital L) and the Prophets but the fulfill them. Why should we limit the application of the word Law to the topics He covers in the Sermon on the Mount? As far as I have been told, typically, the term "the Law" refers to the entirety of the Pentateuch, which of course includes laws about the Sabbath.

(2) Doesn't Christ discuss things other than the Torah (the Law) in the Sermon on the Mount such as rabbinic traditions and commentaries that had become widely observed? All the "You have heard that it was said X" business is what I'm referring to. If that is so, then shouldn't we question whether or not the scope of the application of the verse in question (fulfill/abolish the Law) is even meant to refer exclusively to the specific instances the rest of the sermon addresses? Could it not be just a general principle, like much of what Christ says before it? I don't think that's such an egregious claim.

NOT trying to imply that I'm right, just genuinely inquiring here.

*EDIT Wow...we certainly have gotten of topic here.

[mechana2015]

My original response got lost in the ether so this will be a lot shorter than originally intended, since it's post 2.

I'm not ignoring the rest of the Sermon on the Mount at all. I just didn't feel it had much to do with the issue at hand. I'm sorry you feel like just b/c I didn't mention the rest that I ignored it. I don't think I said anything earlier that contradicted the rest of the sermon?

The content you are referring to, keeping the sabbath day, is not mentioned in the sermon as far as I have been able to see. You can't take half a sentence out and just apply it anywhere in the Bible. If that was fine we could make Jesus say some pretty weird stuff.

(1) Christ says He didn't come to abolish the Law (capital L) and the Prophets but the fulfill them. Why should we limit the application of the word Law to the topics He covers in the Sermon on the Mount? As far as I have been told, typically, the term "the Law" refers to the entirety of the Pentateuch, which of course includes laws about the Sabbath.

To answer this I would need a catalog of the different words for Law in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic across the Bible and which one was used here. Then I would have to know the cultural implications of the specific word used in context of the common people, who were the audience for this sermon. In short... that phrase may not mean Pentatouchal Law, and the rest of the sermon's reference to things OTHER than that re-enforce that it may be a more common term for general religious law.

(2) Doesn't Christ discuss things other than the Torah (the Law) in the Sermon on the Mount such as rabbinic traditions and commentaries that had become widely observed? All the "You have heard that it was said X" business is what I'm referring to. If that is so, then shouldn't we question whether or not the scope of the application of the verse in question (fulfill/abolish the Law) is even meant to refer exclusively to the specific instances the rest of the sermon addresses? Could it not be just a general principle, like much of what Christ says before it? I don't think that's such an egregious claim.

I don't this this was a non-sequitor statement. This was stated as a part of a sermon, and it needs to be considered in the narrative context of the sentence it's in, the chapter it's in, and the entire book of Matthew before it starts getting cut out and assigned to other books of the bible with different authors.

[ChristianKitsune]

I think we always need to quote the Bible with extreme caution, and try not to use it to wrap our own meanings around it. The meaning is ultimately up to God. So we just need to be really really careful when we say certain things in general.

I mean yah, none of us here are experts, however for younger Christians who read what we say they could get super confused about who God really is.

I had a discussion similar to this with a friend today. Bottom line: God knows our hearts. If we truly want to honor him, then I Don't think he gives a flip which day we choose to do so.

For most Americans the "Day of Rest" is Sunday. Heck, I've grown up with the mindset that Sunday IS the last day of the week. (Since it falls on the weekEND) I typically view monday as the start of the week. IS that a flawed opinion? Probably but I genuinely feel that is how it is. lol. I don't wake up Sunday morning and be like "Bwhahaa today I am setting this day aside for God because I was too lazy to do so yesterday." No. That's not the case at all...

IN FACT, I think EVERYday should belong to God. But we as humans are super selfish and so that's a huge struggle in and of itself. I don't think God deserves just one day of our lives to dedicate to Him though....I mean what kind of relationship is that anyway? And isn't that what is important here? Knowing and Loving the God who Loves us?

I dunno, I just think too many times we try to put all these "rules" and "Stipulations" on following Christ, and we look past the part where God is like "I Just really want your heart here...." I mean this kind of stuff can get vile...and people have gotten hurt over this topic. And I just don't think that's what God wants at all.

Off topic I know, but that's how I feel.

[Nate]

IN FACT, I think EVERYday should belong to God. But we as humans are super selfish and so that's a huge struggle in and of itself.

Well...it's more like, we have jobs. I mean I'm not saying our jobs should be or are more important than God is, but what I'm saying is if you work a job, you don't have as much time in the day to do stuff as you do when there's a day where you don't have obligations.

I've actually seen some churches that tell their members to go help out at shelters, visit hospitals, and do various other charity and selfless deeds on the Sabbath. It's the kind of thing that if you're going to work at 8 and coming home at 5, you can't really do. Or even if you work nights ('cuz hey gotta sleep sometime right?).

So it's kind of a matter of while it'd be nice to have every day belong to God, you probably can't unless you're independently wealthy.

I dunno, I just think too many times we try to put all these "rules" and "Stipulations" on following Christ, and we look past the part where God is like "I Just really want your heart here...."

I'm in agreement with this, though I am fully aware I'm usually one of the ones who stirs up trouble a lot of the time. It's a flaw I fully admit and have been working on. I mean trust me you don't wanna know all the times I almost posted on the board and went "Uh actually that would just make me look like a jerk" and stopped myself. Not as much as I should, but hey, I am a flawed and sinful human being.

And to be honest, I probably should apologize for stating my interpretation of those verses as cold hard fact when my reading of them is in no way the only way to interpret them, nor is it even the correct one. So, sorry about that.

As for me I've always had a "less rules more love" approach to Christianity. And I was going to say something else but it would be rude and start a debate no matter how nicely I said it so I deleted it. XP SEE I TOLD YOU I WAS GETTING BETTER. *sneaks off to post it on LJ*

[MxCake]

Colossians:2:14 having erased the charges that were brought against us with their decrees that were hostile to us. He took those charges away when he nailed them to the cross.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day.

can we stop arguing over meaningless things now? we need to treat EVERY day as a sabbath and honor God ALWAYS.

[ChristianKitsune]

Well...it's more like, we have jobs. I mean I'm not saying our jobs should be or are more important than God is, but what I'm saying is if you work a job, you don't have as much time in the day to do stuff as you do when there's a day where you don't have obligations.

I've actually seen some churches that tell their members to go help out at shelters, visit hospitals, and do various other charity and selfless deeds on the Sabbath. It's the kind of thing that if you're going to work at 8 and coming home at 5, you can't really do. Or even if you work nights ('cuz hey gotta sleep sometime right?).

So it's kind of a matter of while it'd be nice to have every day belong to God, you probably can't unless you're independently wealthy.
*

XD I don't think I was very clear with how I said, "I think every day should belong to God."

I didn't mean treat them like a day of rest or anything. I meant like...you know how they tell you that you can worship God in other ways than just singing songs and reading the Bible? But you can worship God with how you live your life in accordance with His word.

It's the same thing really. If in all we do we do to Glorify Christ, then why not make everyday about Him? When we go to work, what we put into our heads, how we interact with others...shouldn't we at least attempt to put God first in all of that? Like... If I went to work and I just complained about my job, and gossiped about my co-workers, how would that be honoring to God? In a perfect world, we'd go into work with a smile on our faces, and doing our very best. In a perfect world, we'd treat our coworkers with love and not annoyance and slander.
But I guess this isn't a perfect world, and even Christians go into work with frowny faces, and talk about their neighbor like they are the evilest person alive.

THAT's why I said earlier, that while ideally I think everyday should belong to God, but because we are humans we are pretty bad at it.

I mean think about it: IF Christians did that...and not just followed "THE RULES" but seriously and whole-heartedly gave their days and lives to God...I think we'd be looking at a completely different world.

Religion has allowed itself to take the place of Love. And that's where the problem lies.

(xD I'm sorry, I did get off topic there. But I felt I needed to clarify.)