Did God really hate Esau?

[TopazRaven]

[quote]Romans 9:10–13
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.â€

[Furen]

No God didn't hate Esau, he hated the sin that he carried, he loved Esau much, but he committed a sin, which is wrong.

I think the scripture was referring to their hearts there, Jacob had a loving heart who lived solely to please God, Esau on the other hand, wanted the best for himself.

[Midori]

Probably depends on what you mean by 'hate'. The term is kind of ambiguous.

[TopazRaven]

If God hated Esau because of the sins he committed, then couldn't he hate any one of us? We all sin after all.

[Nate]

I'd probably buy the whole "God didn't hate Esau but just his sin" thing if Malachi didn't state,

"Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

If it was just Esau's sin God hated and not Esau, why did God turn all of Esau's country into a wasteland? I mean the country didn't sin, right?

[Okami]

To get a grasp of the bigger picture surrounding the verse you would have to go back to the basis for this verse (Malachi 1:2) and then also read the story of Jacob and Esau. For me, personally, it means something like what my Bible notes suggest it towards being - the same sort of "hatred" that we are to feel of our parents in comparison to God (Luke 14:26/Matthew 10:37) Basically it's that God loved Jacob so much, that every other love fell short of that love in a sense that it could look as though it were taking on the form of hatred. Hatred in this sense is not literal.

I don't even know if this makes sense....I'm so tired and probably shouldn't be thinking theologically at almost 1:30am...bed time. zzzz

[Nate]

Basically it's that God loved Jacob so much, that every other love fell short of that love in a sense that it could look as though it were taking on the form of hatred. Hatred in this sense is not literal.

So then God destroyed Esau's country out of love? That hardly makes sense. At the very least, "I turned his country into wasteland and left his inheritance to jackals" sounds like pretty literal hatred to me. I don't see how that could be taken as a positive thing at all.

And if that's how God loved Esau then man I hope God doesn't love me like that.

[Okami]

So then God destroyed Esau's country out of love? That hardly makes sense. At the very least, "I turned his country into wasteland and left his inheritance to jackals" sounds like pretty literal hatred to me. I don't see how that could be taken as a positive thing at all.

And if that's how God loved Esau then man I hope God doesn't love me like that.

I said I didn't know if it made sense. I just did a quick look at it. Should have taken in the context of the Malachi verse which I didn't being so out of it currently. This is the reason why I always tell people to look at the surrounding content to get a bigger picture for what's going on...

Yep, I'm going to bed now before I need to stick my foot in my mouth.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I hate the English language sometimes, there's so little understanding.

[Midori]

Since God is Love, it's hard for me to imagine God not loving everyone. Is our cry of 'love the sinner, hate the sin' just a idealistic fiction? It is certainly true that God punishes those who do evil, even to the death sometimes, but it's dangerous to attribute those punishments to 'hate' in the same sense as the wicked sort of hate.

I think Okami has a good point in mentioning the thing Jesus says:[quote="Luke 14:26 (NIV 2010)"]If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—]Even if this 'hate' is not the same 'hate' God had for Esau, it is an indication that the word by itself cannot always be interpreted the same way.

If God does hate someone, then his hatred must be just and righteous, because God is just and righteous. But if we say we 'hate' someone it is usually in a bad sense. Consider this passage from Jesus' sermon on the mount:[quote="Matthew 5:21-22 (NIV 2010)"]You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘] (Interesting that this new version of the NIV has an 'and' between 'Raca' and 'You Fool' where the previous one had a 'but'. But that's beside the point.)

Even being angry is risky for us humans, as we have a great propensity toward sinning in our anger. But there is such a thing as righteous anger--Jesus got pretty peeved with the Pharisees sometimes, even to the point of calling them vipers. And I believe that righteous anger is what the word 'hate' means in this context, that God had towards Esau.

And Esau had plenty of reasons for God to hate him. He sold his birthright, which was the covenant God had for Isaac's family, for a bowl of stew. It is said he 'despised' his birthright. It was him who rejected God, which cause God to reject him. He all but threw away the grace God gave to his family.

So as for worrying about God hating you--don't. If you are repentant and are trying to do what is right, his grace is sufficient for you. The way you get God's anger to burn against you is by rejecting his grace--just like the "blasphemy against the holy spirit" we discussed earlier.

[Nate]

And Esau had plenty of reasons for God to hate him. He sold his birthright, which was the covenant God had for Isaac's family, for a bowl of stew. It is said he 'despised' his birthright. It was him who rejected God, which cause God to reject him. He all but threw away the grace God gave to his family.

Yeah but the verses Topaz posted said even before they were born or even before they did anything good OR bad, God still loved Jacob and hated Esau. If they hadn't done anything yet, then the whole "He rejected God so God rejected him" doesn't stand. I suppose you could make the whole "God is outside of time so He knew Esau rejected Him before he was even born and so God hated him even before he had done anything because he was GOING to" but that just gets weird. It's kind of like Minority Report: if you arrest someone BEFORE they commit murder even if you know they were totally going to do it, are they still guilty of murder even though they didn't do it yet?

[Rusty Claymore]

I think in the context of John 3:16, no. God loved Esau.
Yeah, turning someone's country into a dragon infested wasteland doesn't seem very loving, but Esau didn't follow God, and there are consequences for that. I'd say it's like punishing a child for doing something wrong. If you let your child get away with everything, you're spoiling it, not loving it.
Edit: Wow... three posts since I started replying... T.T

[Nate]

Yeah, turning someone's country into a dragon infested wasteland doesn't seem very loving, but Esau didn't follow God, and there are consequences for that. I'd say it's like punishing a child for doing something wrong. If you let your child get away with everything, you're spoiling it, not loving it.

I don't buy it. Destroying the land he lived in AFTER he was dead isn't punishing Esau, so your analogy doesn't work. Punish the person? Sure, if it was just Esau being handed down the death sentence by God I'd buy it. But destroying the land?

To follow your analogy, it's like a child doing something wrong, and after the child grows up and has a family and dies, you go into his house and throw everything on the ground, smash the valuable stuff, and burn it. Why? Because he misbehaved once. See how ridiculous and illogical that sounds? That wouldn't be actions for punishing misbehavior, that'd be "Man I hate this guy and want to destroy everything he loved even though he's already dead."

[Midori]

"Such things must come, but woe to him through whom they come." This is a pretty old debate. I think the most common belief among Christians is that yes, God knows people's sins before they commit them, but for some reason lets them do it anyway, and still holds them accountable for their sins.

I can't prove that Esau wasn't just 'unlucky' in the sense that some people just randomly get terminal diseases or hit by trucks or get their countries turned into wastelands. The traditional belief is that such curses and natural disasters are caused indirectly by the original fall of humanity, but that is a mire of theology and metaphysics that we probably don't need to go into again.


EDIT: About God punishing Esau's descendants after he was dead: he has been known to do that from time to time.

I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

I can't say why he does it, as it doesn't quite jive with my own understanding of morality either, but that's what he said.

[Nate]

And this is why having holy texts from a completely different religion becomes troubling. XD Since I don't buy that at all. Sorry, but a child isn't responsible for their parents' sin. If it turned out tomorrow that my dad murdered ten people the police can't come to my house and say "Well your dad is dead but since he murdered ten people and you're his son you've gotta serve his jail time. In fact, since this is Virginia and we have the death penalty, you're going to be executed because your dad murdered ten people. See you on the electric chair!"

[Midori]

At this point I shall make an official notice that this thread should not become a debate over whether OT texts are really scripture or not. I am not conceding or denying the point; it's just that it cannot be debated any more without pulling into question something that a lot of Christians hold as an article of faith, and that is pretty much the very definition of controversial.

[Nate]

Hmm, fair enough, although it does make it difficult to answer the original question then.

[MxCake]

"When studying the Bible, it is critically important to always study the context of a particular Bible verse or passage. In these instances, the Prophet Malachi and the Apostle Paul are using the name “Esau” to refer to the Edomites, who were the descendants of Esau. Isaac and Rebekah had two sons, Esau and Jacob. God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed Israel) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites. God rejected Esau (who was also called Edom), and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people. Esau’s and his descendants, the Edomites, were in many ways blessed by God (Genesis 33:9; Genesis chapter 36).

So, considering the context, God loving Jacob and hating Esau has nothing to do with the human emotions of love and hate. It has everything to do with God choosing one man and his descendants and rejecting another man and his descendants."

you can choose to believe this or not i found it at this site:http://www.gotquestions.org/Jacob-Esau-love-hate.html : )

better then me trying to explain it lol

and i can agree with this because God has done this before,taking a word we only see as one way and then using it another way. lol

[Nate]

...ah, that actually makes perfect sense now. Thanks for that, MxCake!

[Kaligraphic]

The original (O.T.) verse is from Malachi, and isn't so much talking about the actual people, but about what they represent. Jacob had little to recommend him, but he valued his father's blessing, and did whatever was necessary to obtain it. (Now, we know that to us the blessing of God is freely given by the miracle of Christ, but surely this should make it even more precious in our hearts.) Esau, contrarily, would have obtained the blessing by birthright, but thought so little of his father's blessing that he sold it for a bowl of stew. Now, whatever we may think of his methods, the fact remains that the blessing went to the son who valued it.

The book of Malachi is addressing a situation where people had lost respect for God and lost gratitude for His blessing. They viewed the blessings of God as trifles, taking them for granted, and throwing God scraps in return. The purpose of the invocation of Jacob and Esau was to bring people to mind of the value of what God was providing, and of the greatness of God Himself and of His blessings. It was a call to value the blessing of God the way the Jacob valued Isaac's blessing. As it says a little further on, the Gentiles afforded God more honor than His own people!

The verse from Malachi is quoted in Romans to lend weight to the argument that the Jews, who as a nation did not accept Jesus, and even demanded His execution, had likewise given up their messiah, and that God was then giving the blessing to those who would value it. Basically, if you don't want a savior, that's fine. These other people do want one, and if you're not going to use this one...

[Shao Feng-Li]

Good point MxCake. I've never really considered that before.

I was gonna add more, but then I found this: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc6.Rom.x.html

Mathew Henry is awesome

[TopazRaven]

Edit: K. Ayato actually cleared up this next question I had through PM with me, so I figured it wasn't needed here anymore. Meanwhile, I think I agree most with the website MxCake posted. It seems to make the most sense to me. Also, thanks very much for the answers everyone! You've been helpful.

While I'm at it though, I think I've come to a conclusion about something. God is the most kind, patiant, merciful and loving being that will ever be. He far exceeds us humans in every manner we could ever think of. He is eternally good. What is one of the biggest messages of all throughout the whole bible? Love, love, LOVE. God tells us to be kind and love all people. Even if they think differently. Heck, even if they aren't Christians. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Even if it seems hard. This is why I personally don't believe 'God doesn't love everyone.' I have heard some people say this, not here on CAA, but elsewhere. I think He does indeed love everyone, but he hates the sins we commit. That is why it was so important to send Jesus! So that even when we sin and we do make mistakes we still have the chance to know God. As Christians, we are a very diverse group. From denomination to denomination, from person to person. We all tend to have our own different opinions and beliefs on different matters. Wither it's how we pray/worship, how we dress, what we eat/drink, if we go to church or not, how we treat others, how we speak, homosexuality, sex in general, alcohol, Heaven, hell, the Bible, salvation and even the nature of God Himself. What is the one thing we all have in common? Our belief that God sent His only son down to earth to suffer and to die for us. Us terribly sinful humans. God loves us all so much that he sent Jesus Christ down to us to cover us with His very own blood. Belief in Jesus as our savior is what conects us all. What makes us all one big family, you are all my Christian brothers and sisters! No matter what differences in opinion, beliefs and personality we may have, the one thing we share is a love for Jesus and the Holy Spirit who is living inside of us all. I personally still have a long way to go before I am fully strong in my faith. I have doubt at times, I believe in controversial topics (no doubt in ancient times I would have been burned as a heretic or something), I struggle in my trying to put God first and love Him most of all and I struggle with my fear of me and those I love burning forever in a tormenting hell. I struggle to form my own personal relationship with Him and I struggle when I try to bring my family and friends to Him because I am not good with speaking. However, God is good and God is kind and God is patiant. He knows I am trying in least and even if I die tomorrow without reaching my goal He will still know I tried will he not? Will I go to Heaven? I don't know. Will I go to hell? Once again, no idea. All I can do is surrender my love to God and trust that Jesus will save me. Ok, end rant. I just felt like I needed to get these new found feelings out.

[USSRGirl]

The bigger context is not just that Esau sinned. Everyone sins. God did not signal out any other individual and say "ooop. I hate you." The verse is speaking about a very specific action - that of giving away his birthright, symbolic to rejecting our birthright as children of God. Rejecting God is essentially the "unforgiveable sin" and so the verse refers to this. On that note, no, God did not hate Esau as a person as is evident by the mercy shown him elsewhere in the scripture. Reading the full story and context - both cultural and historical - is very important, or else you will get a lot of unusual interpretations thrown at you.

[TopazRaven]

I know. I figured that out the hard way obviously.

[Radical Dreamer]

The bigger context is not just that Esau sinned. Everyone sins. God did not signal out any other individual and say "ooop. I hate you." The verse is speaking about a very specific action - that of giving away his birthright, symbolic to rejecting our birthright as children of God. Rejecting God is essentially the "unforgivable sin" and so the verse refers to this.

That's what I've gotten out of it, too, and that's one of the things that I think is really amazing about God's word. XD So many of the OT scriptures are symbolic of Christ's sacrifice that was to come in the NT, and the ways that we would/should accept that. In this case, it showcases two sinners--one who rejected God, and the other who lied to his father and stole his brother's blessing. I think that it becomes a really beautiful picture of God's grace when we realize that both of these men were complete sinners in God's eyes (as pretty much every important OT figure was), and yet God still loved and blessed the repentant one who valued His blessing.

Anyways, this has been a really interesting thread so far! Thanks for being awesome, CAA!

[USSRGirl]

Yep, definitely. RD hit it dead on - the thing we gotta remember is Jacob was a total sleezeball. XD The difference was that he repented. I think there's a lot to look at in his possessing the birthright regardless of sin - the promise is still there. I love the OT because I think it definitely brings the Bible together as one complete book and like you said, the "moral" of every story is ultimately a picture of the Messiah. A lot in the OT makes sense when looked at from a more prophetic/symbolic angle.

[Cardiche007]

I find it curious that Esau disobeyed his parents' wishes and took numerous wives against their will. Whereas Joseph obeyed God on the one hand, Laban on the other, and being thus obedient he had near as many wives (and offspring?) as Esau. Of course Joseph only really wanted Rachel. He was more or less tricked into his nuptials with Rachel's sister and into sleeping with the handmaidens--Funny how he remained obedient in the face of being continually used by others' will and yet ended with as many wives and children as Esau himself had. And more: Joseph's descendants were blessed by the Lord.

I suppose, though, Joseph's deception at the hands of Laban is also a form of repentance for having stolen Esau's blessing. Or is perhaps his being deceived really the beginning of Esau's stolen blessing? At least insofar as material abundance, I would say that Joseph's many children and wives are a mirror to Esau's.

[Midori]

I think by Joseph you mean Jacob, right?

[Hiryu]

And Esau had plenty of reasons for God to hate him. He sold his birthright, which was the covenant God had for Isaac's family, for a bowl of stew. It is said he 'despised' his birthright. It was him who rejected God, which cause God to reject him. He all but threw away the grace God gave to his family.

True, but the way the bible tells the story, it was like either he sold his birthright and lived or died from starvation. Of course that seems hardly applicable since he was a hunter.

So, considering the context, God loving Jacob and hating Esau has nothing to do with the human emotions of love and hate. It has everything to do with God choosing one man and his descendants and rejecting another man and his descendants."

Much like with Cain and Abel.

[Cardiche007]

I think by Joseph you mean Jacob, right?

My bad. I should know better than that.