[Mature] Views On Sexuality

[ShiroiHikari]

I...am not going to get into it in this thread. In order to make my point I would have to talk about deeply personal issues. Personal stuff is personal.

[ich1990]

Fair enough, I guess I will just have to continue on my own naive way, then. If you wish to criticize my ideas in the future, though, I appreciate at least knowing why. I am more than willing to change my mind, should I be wrong, but I can't do so without a reason.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Alright, that is your prerogative as a married person. I can't argue with personal experience.

However, I don't see your point. Does it really hurt you to wait and gain basic knowledge about the subject with your spouse rather than by yourself? Ideally, this knowledge will all be theory until then anyways.

To save Shiroi from having to say too much, I'll just put this out there: There is such a thing as "compatibility" when it comes to sex. There is a great deal of learning together (as my wife and I have done) but there has to be a basis of fundamental compatibility first.

[TWWK]

It might be helpful if some of us gave encouraging stories about sex!

I waited until my wedding night, and so did my wife. The pressure was intense throughout our relationship (and in previous ones) to move that line (whatever it is)...to edge it a little closer to the danger zone. We weren't perfect, but we did save ourselves for each other and were stronger in our relationship than in past ones we each had. In fact, we agreed not to even kiss until our wedding day - it was like two for one! Ha!

Anyway, our physical relationship in the first weeks and months of marriage was a learning process. It was sometimes frustrating, but also gratifying. And now, years in, things are wonderful. Not only is there no doubt in my mind that it was worth the wait, I'm also glad to have waited because previous sexual relationships would have harmed my current one, and the only one that matters.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

It might be helpful if some of us gave encouraging stories about sex!

I waited until my wedding night, and so did my wife. The pressure was intense throughout our relationship (and in previous ones) to move that line (whatever it is)...to edge it a little closer to the danger zone. We weren't perfect, but we did save ourselves for each other and were stronger in our relationship than in past ones we each had. In fact, we agreed not to even kiss until our wedding day - it was like two for one! Ha!

Anyway, our physical relationship in the first weeks and months of marriage was a learning process. It was sometimes frustrating, but also gratifying. And now, years in, things are wonderful. Not only is there no doubt in my mind that it was worth the wait, I'm also glad to have waited because previous sexual relationships would have harmed my current one, and the only one that matters.

The fact that you were both conscious enough after your wedding to actually do anything, much less enjoy it so much, is to be commended. My wife and I were both so exhausted that we couldn't fit anything in (to our schedule, you pervs) at all. And the next morning we had to get up and pretty much immediately leave the hotel for more family junk. We left the next day for our honeymoon and twenty four hours after arriving at our honeymoon destination she got that monthly visit.

Situation irony is great.

[Yamamaya]

The fact that you were both conscious enough after your wedding to actually do anything, much less enjoy it so much, is to be commended. My wife and I were both so exhausted that we couldn't fit anything in (to our schedule, you pervs) at all. And the next morning we had to get up and pretty much immediately leave the hotel for more family junk. We left the next day for our honeymoon and twenty four hours after arriving at our honeymoon destination she got that monthly visit.

Situation irony is great.

Fate has a bad way of trolling you.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Personally, I'm sick of seeing people beat themselves up because they have a sex drive. Wanting to have sex is not a sin.

Word.

So, I will add a wrinkle to this discussion:

We have talked about the morality of sex in terms of commitment level, and we have explored the definition of marriage. But, I am curious about you guys' thoughts on the purpose of sex. Is it just to fulfill an urge or is there something more to it? Is the chief purpose of sex pure pleasure, creating a bond, childbearing, or something else? Does the morality of sexual relations hinge in any way upon the participants' being open to their act resulting in the creation of new life?

[K. Ayato]

Speaking as a wife, personally I believe the purpose for sex encompasses the verses in Genesis 2 where the husband and wife become one. In short, it creates this closeness between you and your spouse. There's also the fulfillment of desires and emotions as well, but I can't really think of any other way that brings me and my husband closer together.

I know there are exceptions to that among married couples and I won't deny them. I can only speak from personal experience .

[Nate]

ANY porn is watchable by either gender depending on the woman's interest.

This is pretty much what I was getting at. Women have sex drives too, though they're naturally a bit more muted and calm than men's. But that doesn't mean women don't have any interest in sex, and women can be turned on by porn just as much as men can. To say that they can't, or to imply that there needs to be specific porn JUST for women, is to assume that women cannot or should not be interested in sex, which is a very unhealthy view.

I've seen some say there is "porn for women" and I'm not sure if you're referring to that joke book where it has pictures of men doing housework, or what. That book is meant as a joke, so I hope no one means that. Other than that I can't possibly think of what that phrase means. Porn for women is just regular porn.

I don't think that's quite right either though. People shouldn't get married just because they want to have sex. They should get married because they love each other and want to spend their lives together.

This is an interesting view of marriage, and one that has really only surfaced since women's lib. Before, women were regarded as property/second-class citizens/baby machines (some still view them that way). In the Bible, while there are examples of a man and woman who loved each other deeply (Song of Solomon for example), marriage was seen more as a way to increase the strength of the man's legacy (which is why a widow would have to marry her husband's brother if she didn't produce a child), as a way of protection (which is why the "punishment" for a man who raped a woman was to marry her and pay a fine to the woman's father), or for political reasons...which I can't think of any examples from the Bible off the top of my head of a political marriage, but I'm sure there is one or two. Marriage was rarely done purely out of the aspect of love, and it stayed that way through most of recorded history, marriage was usually a way of gaining wealth or material goods, or for politically convenient purposes, such as having the prince and princess of two countries marry to forge an alliance between them.

In fact, look at Romeo and Juliet. At the beginning, a count asks Juliet's father for her hand in marriage, but Juliet's dad thinks she's too young at the moment. Juliet's mother and nurse then try to persuade her to accept the marriage, because the count is very wealthy and related to royalty.

Though I got kind of dinged the last time I mentioned this in another thread, hopefully I can mention it now without too much backlash. Paul himself actually says if you want sex, get married. This is in 1 Corinthians 7:

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

In other words, if you're being tempted to have sex, then hurry up and get married so you can have sex. He repeats this again in verse 36:

"If anyone is worried that he might not be acting honorably toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if his passions are too strong and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married."

And remember, all this is in the context of him saying he thinks everyone should stay single, like he was. He was basically saying "Try to stay unmarried because you can focus on God more, but if you really wanna have sex, go get married, because that's better than having pent-up sexual frustration all the time."

Again, as I said, marrying for love is a pretty new and unique concept as far as society is concerned.

Is the chief purpose of sex pure pleasure, creating a bond, childbearing, or something else? Does the morality of sexual relations hinge in any way upon the participants' being open to their act resulting in the creation of new life?

Ah, good questions. I'll say that the purpose of sex is both. It is for pleasure AND childbearing. God obviously intended for sex to be used as pleasure, or else He wouldn't have made it feel good. We'd be like housecats, where sex is actually painful for the female.

And no, I don't think the morality of sex is dependent upon being open to the creation of new life. Otherwise, impotent men and barren women would have to refrain from sex. I don't think it's wrong for a married couple to use a condom, either, or birth control, whatever. That's between them. There's lots of very good reasons to decide not to have a child. For example, having a disease that has a high chance of being passed down to children, or financial troubles. Also, some people just don't want to be parents. I know I don't. I don't like kids, I have no interest in being a father. That's just how some people feel, and I don't think it's right to judge them on their personal convictions. Not saying you are, mind you, but there are some who would.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

[quote="K. Ayato (post: 1434799)"]Speaking as a wife, personally I believe the purpose for sex encompasses the verses in Genesis 2 where the husband and wife become one. In short, it creates this closeness between you and your spouse. There's also the fulfillment of desires and emotions as well, but I can't really think of any other way that brings me and my husband closer together.

I know there are exceptions to that among married couples and I won't deny them. I can only speak from personal experience ]

If you know what to look for, you can actually tell the difference between couples that have had sex and couples that don't in the way they react to one another's touch. It's a tangibly visible difference.

[TWWK]

The fact that you were both conscious enough after your wedding to actually do anything, much less enjoy it so much, is to be commended. My wife and I were both so exhausted that we couldn't fit anything in (to our schedule, you pervs) at all. And the next morning we had to get up and pretty much immediately leave the hotel for more family junk. We left the next day for our honeymoon and twenty four hours after arriving at our honeymoon destination she got that monthly visit.

Ahhh, that is the greatness of having a wedding planner who just tells you where to go, and bridesmaids/groomsmen who get you your food so that you actually get a bite to eat. Even better is when said wedding planner is a friend doing it for you for free.

[Davidizer13]

Might as well throw my thoughts into it.

Sex is a good thing - we've established that. God created it and gave it as a gift to us. If it wasn't, we'd be reproducing by spraying around spores or through spermatophores; there's plenty of ways to reproduce besides internal fertilization.

The way I see it, sex is like a power tool. (No, don't go away yet, stick with me here...) You can use it in the way it's meant to be used, and do great things with it - I can use them to build cool stuff and serve others, or I can misuse it and end up hurting myself or someone else. For the same reason I don't run around waving whirling circular saws or rototill with a snowblower, I'm choosing to save sex until I'm able to actually use it in the way it's meant to be used.

That use, I believe, is to bond with your spouse, someone you've promised to stay with throughout your life, no matter what; someone who should be your best friend and soul-mate, and all those hormones flying around during sex serve to strengthen this bond. Reproduction is only part of the equation; marriage acts to provide stability and security for the children you have, knowing that that link is in place to support parents and kids alike.

...Well, that was pretty disjointed, but you get what I'm saying, I hope.

[Doubleshadow]

Speaking as a wife, personally I believe the purpose for sex encompasses the verses in Genesis 2 where the husband and wife become one. In short, it creates this closeness between you and your spouse. There's also the fulfillment of desires and emotions as well, but I can't really think of any other way that brings me and my husband closer together.

Yup.

We (the West in 2010) aren't the be all-end all of sexuality. As an example, in many cultures, children are breast feed until they are about five years old. This causes a natural birth control for those five years. The parents can be together and reaffirm their emotional bond without having another child immediately. There is also the drive after menopause when there will be no more pregnancies anyway.

[armeck]

I don't think that's quite right either though. People shouldn't get married just because they want to have sex. They should get married because they love each other and want to spend their lives together. Getting married to early in a relationship or getting married just to have sex can lead to early divorce and as you all know God does not like divorce.

oh wow! epic win! sounds almost identical to what i have said! ah, i don't really know you, but from now you, i view you as a winner at life! XD lol i personally think, the perfect relationship is where they are to excited to talk to each other they forget to have sex. now, that may not be true for everyone. but for me, that's how i want it to be

[Hiryu]

Wow, a lot of replies since I last visited here. I like the analogy, Davidizer.

Emphasis mine. This wasn't about a man being seduced into premarital sex, it's about a husband being seduced into adultery. Thus, it cannot be used to go against premarital sex.

Hmm, not quite. I'm glad you checked me,though. At verse 19-22, This is the woman speaking. She is talking about her husband being away from home. (Look at verse 5, it continues on until the end of the chapter.) Well, that's still not premarital sex! True, but what about the young man? It does not say whether he is married or not, but perhaps he is too young to be married.

Whoah, let's back up for a moment. It's fine that you passionately disagree with the choices that other people make, but I don't think that we should jump to conclusions about their character. Taken on a large scale, people do care about others and what happens to them. It's why there are so many secular charity organizations, and in specific relation to sex, it's why we invented "safe sex". No one wants to spread disease or end up with an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy.

You have a point. I don't think everyone who wants to have sex with another person wants to hurt them, but there are some mean, awful people out there.

King Solomon also had 700 wives. Given that he lived to about 80 and puberty starts at 13, he had 67 years to acquire them... hence he "married" another women practically every month. I don't think he's the best guy to be picking on other people for "sexual immorality". When it comes down to people like him, marriage and hooking up for the night is only a matter of language.

Hahahahaha, you're right on that one. He also had 300 concubines. I have heard that he did not go out and find so many wives on his own.

History reveals that Solomon was very aggressive in his foreign policy. In sealing treaties in ancient days, it was customary for a lesser king to give his daughter in marriage to the greater king (in this case, Solomon). Every time a new treaty was sealed, Solomon ended up with yet another wife. These wives were considered tokens of friendship and “sealed” the relationship between the two kings.

He may have had sex with them, but he still did it within the sanctity of marriage. Although the bible does say that intermarrying with other people would cause them to turn their hearts away from God, which is what ended up happening. It's not like he was a hypocrite and took women who were married already.

In the end, lord forgive me if I really am wrong, I do think premarital sex is more acceptable within a committed relationship with someone you love.

Hmm, perhaps. But I feel that it's wrong, period.

Women have sex drives too, though they're naturally a bit more muted and calm than men's.

Men and women do differ in ways of getting "turned on." I have heard that for men, it is like turning on a light switch, while for women, it is like adjusting the volume knob on a stereo.

Is the chief purpose of sex pure pleasure, creating a bond, childbearing, or something else?

All three. It is pleasurable, thereby promoting emotional bonding between the two, and is also the means of reproducing.

[Doubleshadow]

Women have sex drives too, though they're naturally a bit more muted and calm than men's.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! What left over piece of Victorian prudery says women have a 'calm and muted' sex drive? It has an emotional tie in that men don't, so we are more selective in ways I can't detail without making Shooraijin bring out the mega-shears.
Plus females mature earlier, so girls are more likely to pressure boys into early sex than the other way around, despite the propagated chauvinist stereotype.

[Ante Bellum]

Yeah. I actually heard that women can have a bigger sex drive than men...

[shooraijin]

without making Shooraijin bring out the mega-shears.

Quite.

[Nate]

It has an emotional tie in that men don't, so we are more selective in ways I can't detail without making Shooraijin bring out the mega-shears.

That's more or less what I meant, but admittedly phrased it very poorly.

Plus females mature earlier, so girls are more likely to pressure boys into early sex than the other way around, despite the propagated chauvinist stereotype.

I hadn't heard that before but y'know...it makes total sense and actually now that I think about it, it's pretty painfully obvious.

[armeck]

Plus females mature earlier, so girls are more likely to pressure boys into early sex than the other way around, despite the propagated chauvinist stereotype.

most women wouldn't admit that though lol

[TopazRaven]

oh wow! epic win! sounds almost identical to what i have said! ah, i don't really know you, but from now you, i view you as a winner at life! XD lol i personally think, the perfect relationship is where they are to excited to talk to each other they forget to have sex. now, that may not be true for everyone. but for me, that's how i want it to be

Yay, I'm a winner! Thanks. And that sounds so cute. I hope someday when I have a boyfriend, if I ever do, that I'll be able to talk to him like that...or at all. I'm so shy. xD

Hmm, perhaps. But I feel that it's wrong, period.

And that's fine. Everyone has a right to their own opinnion.

[ich1990]

There is such a thing as "compatibility" when it comes to sex. There is a great deal of learning together (as my wife and I have done) but there has to be a basis of fundamental compatibility first.

Well, if a theoretical future wife was homosexual or asexual, it would probably be a good idea to discuss the implications of such a compatibility problem before marriage. That still doesn't require that a future theoretical couple spoil the surprise and learn about the specifics of sex before marriage though (even if conditions do make them a moot point).

I don't make a habit of arguing with married people about marriage, but unless there is some aspect of marriage that is not commonly known, I still don't follow your reasoning. Perhaps a married person could PM me with specifics? I would like my future theoretical marriage to be as successful as possible, so please, by all means, help me out.

[shooraijin]

Yes, you should take such a discussion to PM.

[Radical Dreamer]

Well, if she was homosexual or asexual, it would probably be a good idea to discuss the implications of such a compatibility problem before marriage. That still doesn't require that I spoil the surprise and learn about the specifics of sex before marriage though (even if it does kind of make them a moot point).

I don't make a habit of arguing with married people about marriage, but unless there is some super secret marriage thing that I am not being let in on, I still don't follow your reasoning. Perhaps a married person could PM me with specifics? I would like my marriage (assuming I decide to get married) to be as successful as possible, so please, by all means, help me out.

I would like to point out that it is entirely her prerogative if she wants to expound on her personal life in a public forum, and that's 100% okay. So yes, please take this line of the conversation to PM, as you suggested.

EDIT: Oh snap, Shoo is faster than I am. XD Carry on, dudes!

[ich1990]

I would like to point out that it is entirely her prerogative if she wants to expound on her personal life in a public forum, and that's 100% okay. So yes, please take this line of the conversation to PM, as you suggested.

I was actually speaking to Etoh or any other married person who would like join the conversation. I was not talking to Shiroi who already was clear about her boundaries between private and internet life. Also, by "she" I meant a theoretical future wife. Not anyone on the boards. No offense or presumptions meant. Sorry I wasn't making myself clear, I have edited my past post to better reflect my meaning.

[Radical Dreamer]

I was actually speaking to Etoh or any other married person who would like join the conversation. I was not talking to Shiroi who already was clear about her boundaries between private and internet life. Also, by "she" I meant a theoretical future wife. Not anyone on the boards. No offense or presumptions meant. Sorry I wasn't making myself clear, I have edited my past post to better reflect my meaning.

Oh okay, sorry, I assumed you were still talking about the earlier conversation. XD That was a misunderstanding on my part! XD Once again, carry on! XD

[K. Ayato]

PM me with your questions, ich. Been married 3 months and 2 days, so I might be able to provide some answers.

[Sapphire225]

First of all, I know where you're coming from. I'm a virgin who was a little bit ostracized by some of my "friends" in certain matters because I told them I plan to wait until marriage before having sex and if I don't get married, I would die a virgin. It isn't like sex is everything that everyone makes it to be. I was shocked how many of my friends had planned to lose their virginity as soon as possible whenever they get into a good relationship. Also, my second boyfriend had broken up with me after I emphasized the fact that I don't want to have sex at all. But I have no regrets: all of my older cousins on both sides of my family got pregnant and are going through several harsh times, and I know several people who regret going further than they should have.

I've never got my first kiss and never went further than a peck on the cheek. As weird as it sounds, I want my first real kiss to be while I'm in my wedding gown. I have no compunctions about people kissing others, but I want the first kiss to be the most special of kisses. Why not right after the preacher says "You may kiss your bride?"

I know it sounds like a long wait, but I want God to give me a man with an abundance of patience and a love for me that they are willing to wait until marriage for anything like sex and kissing. Love is patient.

[ShiroiHikari]

I...am just not even going to get started on why I don't agree with waiting until the wedding day to kiss.

[armeck]

I...am just not even going to get started on why I don't agree with waiting until the wedding day to kiss.

epic post! i don't see anything wrong with it, but i do find it a bit odd. i mean, it's a sweet thought and all, but really not anywhere near necessary

Yay, I'm a winner! Thanks. And that sounds so cute. I hope someday when I have a boyfriend, if I ever do, that I'll be able to talk to him like that...or at all. I'm so shy. xD

yeah i'm shy too, but i'm sure you'll be able to talk to him, afterall, how is he supposed to be your boyfriend if he hasn't even heard you talk