Going Green

[Yuki-Anne]

Okay, so Nate and I were spoiling for this debate in another thread, but it would've been way off topic, so I decided to make this other thread. I admit that I am not particularly well educated on this topic, so I'd like to hear what you guys say.

What do you think about "going green"? Is it worth the time, energy, and money that people are putting into it? Or is it just another fad that companies are using to exploit customers' honest desire to preserve the environment? Is it necessarily the same thing as environmental responsibility? Speaking of which, what is our responsibility to the environment? What should we be doing, and what shouldn't we be doing?

Discuss.

[ChristianKitsune]

Well I support the Green movement to an extent. I believe that God has given us this planet to take care of and frankly we haven't been doing the greatest job at it.

My father actually works in the wind turbine industry and recently got a promotion to oversee two farms in Oklahoma! I'm very proud of the wind turbines and I swell with pride every time I see the three blades rotating in the wind. I see them as gorgeous, and very eco friendly! They can't store electricity yet, but they can provide a great deal of it to other cities! It's exciting, and I can't wait to see that particular industry grow! ^_^

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

I think society has made a religion of the 'going green' concept. People are pretty much worshipping nature. God tells us to look after the world and everything in it (we could do a much better job of it) but I think it's being seen as more important than getting to know people and telling them the Good News. I think some people are making money from making society paranoid. Ah, capitalism at work. We should be respecting nature and those who find it their calling, should speak up to encourage government etc. to do something about it all. We shouldn't put the lives of animals etc. above humans, as some associations do (you know who I'm talking about).

So yes, it's a money-making venture and about respecting the environment.

[ShiroiHikari]

I think it's a good thing that people are trying to be more responsible but just like anything else, it can easily be taken too far.

For the record, I'm kinda on the green bandwagon. I don't like littering, don't like to use harsh chemicals in my house, and I would recycle if it wasn't such a huge pain. (I live in an apartment so no curbside service and I've got no room to store piles of plastic.)

[Saved Gamer]

While I do support the development of renewable energy technology, recycling and such it is more for pragmatic reasons. The best energy sources will run out eventually and the technology needs to be ready for that time. Going green all at once, which is what one political party in Britain would have us do, is a very bad idea.

[Jingo Jaden]

Going green would ruin the realization of my steam punk utopia.

[Atria35]

As someone who's felt the calling to help the environment, I'm sometimes not sure how I feel about it.

I do believe in recycling- there are just some things that shouldn't be put in landfills.
I believe in using eco-friendy chemicals, because I do know what those harsh chemicals can do to you (and your kids).
I believe that sustainability is a big issue- I've researched deforestation and land usage and whatnot, and know that it's often overlooked as people build houses and invade species' habitats (which is part of why they have problems with alligators in Florida being in people's backyards)
I believe that there is a finite amount of oil on this planet, and that finding other alternative sources of energy is a good thing that lessens our dependence on certai corrupt Middle-Eastern governments

BUt I feel that companies take advantage of that, aren't trustworthy about what's really "green" in their products, and aren't honest about their business practices in general.

[Warrior4Christ]

Question: does burning wood in a fireplace during winter give off carbon dioxide comparable to the average use of a car? It seems like a fairly "natural" thing to do though.

[ich1990]

I think the majority of the Green Movement as a social being has its priorities roughly in the right place, and exerts its peer pressure to bring about positive change in people.

But I also think that most people don't think through this stuff quite well enough. For instance, many people may buy organic foods without looking at how much of the crop they are consuming is lost due to the fact that it was not created using modern agricultural technology. That is, they support inefficient farming practices (which use up extra resources, cause even more desertification, etc.), all while having a clean conscience because they think they are helping the environment. Organic sounds so benign.

Another example is hybrid cars. Many people think they are going green because they buy partially electric or wholly electric vehicles. The reality is the power they are using had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is probably that coal plant just outside of town. So, while they thought they were helping the environment, they are really just shifting the CO2 production (and the bad feelings associated with it) to a different location. Ironically (and yes I know I am not using the word properly), when you add the power loss from transporting the electricity to the vehicle (as well as the environmental damage caused by using and throwing away all of those batteries) to the equation, hybrid and electric vehicles actually have a net-negative affect on the environment.

So, yeah. I think the Green Movement's heart is in the right place--at least, they are trying to avoid feeling guilty about the environment which means that they at least acknowledge that their actions harm it. But, most people within the movement don't really think about what they are doing and are just taken in with the latest Green fads or marketing ploys which cause them to damage the environment with a clean conscience (and an empty wallet).

[CrimsonRyu17]

Question: does burning wood in a fireplace during winter give off carbon dioxide comparable to the average use of a car? It seems like a fairly "natural" thing to do though.

Burning wood is carbon neutral, which means the carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere by burning wood is reabsorbed by the trees that produce the wood. Wood is a renewable resource and I guess it's "natural" in a sense because there are actually fire dependent ecosystems. Some trees even require fire to release seed like the lodgepole and jack pine trees. Burning wood is not harmful to the environment.

Burning oil and other fossil fuels on the other hand is completely different.

[Atria35]

But I also think that most people don't think through this stuff quite well enough. For instance, many people may buy organic foods without looking at how much of the crop they are consuming is lost due to the fact that it was not created using modern agricultural technology. That is, they support inefficient farming practices (which use up extra resources, cause even more desertification, etc.), all while having a clean conscience because they think they are helping the environment. Organic sounds so benign.

Um, could you clarify this? I know that according to the FDA, "organic" means that 95% of the item must be made with natural ingredients- meaning, synthetic pesticides are restricted, livestock must be reared without routined antibiotics, synthetic chemicals in general aren't used. I actually don't mind this, as I am aware of what those chemicals can do and how long they stay in the body. ANd I'm not entirely fond of modern farming practices, as they can affect the ecological systems that surround them.

Another example is hybrid cars. Many people think they are going green because they buy partially electric or wholly electric vehicles. The reality is the power they are using had to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is probably that coal plant just outside of town.... hybrid and electric vehicles actually have a net-negative affect on the environment.

Agreed on this one.

[ShiroiHikari]

So what about this newest wave of all-electric cars, like the Nissan Leaf? Yes, they use electricity from power plants which probably use coal, but I think it's better than relying on solely gasoline (or diesel). These changes take time and I think the electric cars are a huge step forward. I think in that case it's not so much about polluting up the earth as it is finding some other way to power our vehicles, since gasoline is not exactly a renewable resource. (Somewhat related remark: I really hate ethanol gasoline.)

Obviously the answer to all our problems is the Shizuma drive.

















[SIZE="1"]someone had to say it, figured it might as well be me[/SIZE]

[mechana2015]

Another side of cars like the leaf is that they can store excess power produced by renewable energy sources. For example, wind power is usually more effective at night, but it can actually OVERproduce power, resulting in waste energy. The LEAF and other plug in electric vehicles are supposedly going to consume the overdraw since their primary charging time will be at night in the garage of the home. A big issue from many forms of power production is storage... something that can be used to contain the unused power for later use, and electric cars are being seen as a piece of that solution.

[Rewin]

Um, could you clarify this? I know that according to the FDA, "organic" means that 95% of the item must be made with natural ingredients- meaning, synthetic pesticides are restricted, livestock must be reared without routined antibiotics, synthetic chemicals in general aren't used. I actually don't mind this, as I am aware of what those chamicals can do and how long they stay in the body- and workers on those farms aren't dying of cancer or going infertile, like on our modern farms that do use these things. And modern farming practices wear out the land far more quickly than traditional farming methods, which is just as inefficient.

I'm going to have to argue with you on this one. Modern chemicals used on crops are highly monitored and regulated and I know of no farmer in my area whose cancer has been even remotely traced to these chemicals, nor is there anything showing that those in rural areas get cancer more frequently than those in urban areas. Likewise, I don't know very many farmers who are sterile (seriously, there are a lot of large agriculture families around here). As for antibiotics in cattle (or any meat for that matter), this is strongly regulated by the USDA. All antibiotics come with a withdrawl period that tells you how long you must wait before the animal can be slaughtered for human consumption, and if any animal is found with antibiotics still in it's system the owner is put onto probation. Any offense while on probation results in a fine or worse, depending on the number of offenses. This also applies to milk that is sold.
The area I live has been farm ground for hundreds of years and is producing better than ever. Our farming methods may take a lot out of the ground, but we know how to do it right and keep the ground from being ruined. Also, modern farming and technology have allowed us to convert ground that once was "unfarmable" to be used properly. It is more efficient and allows us to produce crops in a way that keeps the prices reasonable. The only modern thing destroying farm land is the expansion of cities.
I also don't buy into the "global warming" fraud (will find links later to explain why I call it fraud).
I do like all the recycling that is going on. No point in leaving our trash everywhere making everything look awful and makes much more sense to reuse plastic and such. I hate litter, makes me want to punch someone everytime I see a cigarette butt on the ground (or plastic bottle, or tire, or couch etc etc).
Ok, I'm going to stop now.... I am very opinionated on this subject, can you tell?

[CrimsonRyu17]

Since this is a pretty touchy subject, I recommend that if you are going to state facts regarding which takes up more resources, which is healthier, less harmful on the land, etc. then quote a reliable source and especially do your research.

Regarding the environment, it is a very serious and emotional issue for some people. I personally know a Native American woman who still holds onto the beliefs of her people and is hurt by the way people treat the land her people once lived and thrived on. I too, have come to share her feelings, in that I am deeply disappointed and deeply disgusted by the way people greedily take from the land and do not give anything in return. Which is why I'm going to try and stay out of this thread.

[ShiroiHikari]

Regarding discussion of global warming: Let's not and say we did. Seriously, that's a very controversial subject that should probably be left off these boards.

[Atria35]

Another side of cars like the leaf is that they can store excess power produced by renewable energy sources. For example, wind power is usually more effective at night, but it can actually OVERproduce power, resulting in waste energy. The LEAF and other plug in electric vehicles are supposedly going to consume the overdraw since their primary charging time will be at night in the garage of the home. A big issue from many forms of power production is storage... something that can be used to contain the unused power for later use, and electric cars are being seen as a piece of that solution.

That's pretty cool. I didn't know that about wind farms

I'm going to have to argue with you on this one. Modern chemicals used on crops are highly monitored and regulated and I know of no farmer in my area whose cancer has been even remotely traced to these chemicals, nor is there anything showing that those in rural areas get cancer more frequently than those in urban areas. Likewise, I don't know very many farmers who are sterile (seriously, there are a lot of large agriculture families around here). As for antibiotics in cattle (or any meat for that matter), this is strongly regulated by the USDA. All antibiotics come with a withdrawl period that tells you how long you must wait before the animal can be slaughtered for human consumption, and if any animal is found with antibiotics still in it's system the owner is put onto probation. Any offense while on probation results in a fine or worse, depending on the number of offenses. This also applies to milk that is sold.

Sorry. I was thinking about the up-and-coming "modern" farms in.... not the US, actually. We're fairly self-sufficient and good about this sort of thing, but there are enough countries out there that use our modern practices and aren't as strict as the US with regulations. The recent scandal in China has illustrated that there's a lot of things going on in their food industry that isn't kosher- while that chemical was added after the cows had been milked, I believe there have been issues about bad agricultural practices getting antibiotics into food, and also clogging up (and poisoning) their rivers and lakes. However! THat doesn't mean that the US is the greatest. There are enough reports going around (and reports from the CDC) that the US population still gets too many antibiotics in it's food. So I would still disagree with you there.

Ah! And here's a few articles on the subject, both in the US and outside of it.: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/us/15farm.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/opinion/02kristof.html?scp=12&sq=antibiotics%20meat&st=cse
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/world/americas/27salmon.html?ref=salmon

There are tons more, including one from National Geographic on the fish part of the meat industry- which is important because we get so much of our fish from other countries.

Finally, the area I live has been farm ground for hundreds of years and is producing better than ever. Our farming methods may take a lot out of the ground, but we know how to do it right and keep the ground from being ruined. Also, modern farming and technology have allowed us to convert ground that once was "unfarmable" to be used properly. It is more efficient and allows us to produce crops in a way that keeps the prices reasonable. The only modern thing destroying farm land is the expansion of cities.
I also don't buy into the "global warming" fraud (will find links later to explain why I call it fraud).

I was aware of the land being able to be used that wasn't before- I follow farming efforts in China, and have seen that used. It is fairly impressive. But I just wonder about the chemicals that are put into the ground to help the plants grow- the nitrogen-rich ones. I've seen enough articles in newspapers about those getting into the rivers and lakes, which is very bad for the ecological systems there. I can pull a few of those up in a bit. Don't do the global warming thing. That's not what we're talking about, and will for sure spark further debate. This isn't for debate, it's for discussion.

But I'm not talking out my backside with this. My uncle was a farmer, and we talk a lot about this stuff, since it ties into what I want to do when I graduate.

[mechana2015]

Regarding discussion of global warming: Let's not and say we did. Seriously, that's a very controversial subject that should probably be left off these boards.

Precisely.

On another point, people would be surprised at how much waste is created by plastic recycling...it's not actually that efficient, or power friendly since it's a petroleum based product that requires extensive chemical processes to recycle. A better solution would be to find something less toxic and either better at biodegrading, or easier to reconstitute to make the majority of our plastic products out of, especially the disposable plastics.

That's pretty cool. I didn't know that about wind farms

*Insert meteorology lecture about how the switch between night and day exchanges atmospheric energy in the form of wind.*
Solar actually is the exact opposite of wind and functions ONLY during daylight hours (stating the obvious), which is why there are initiatives for solar powered electric car charging stations in parking lots and for designing battery systems to collect excess solar for peak hour usage.

[ShiroiHikari]

On another point, people would be surprised at how much waste is created by plastic recycling...it's not actually that efficient, or power friendly since it's a petroleum based product that requires extensive chemical processes to recycle. A better solution would be to find something less toxic and either better at biodegrading, or easier to reconstitute to make the majority of our plastic products out of, especially the disposable plastics.

Good point there. Personally I'd rather we start using glass bottles again instead of plastic for things like soda and whatnot. I doubt that's ever going to happen though.

[Radical Dreamer]

I'm gonna start by dropping a little piece of awesome into this thread:




Anyways, I agree with many of you: I think recycling/not littering is good, I think not running your electricity or water all day for no reason is good, and taking care of the earth and the things within it is something we've been called to. But I also agree that a lot of people can take it way overboard. XD The end!

[mechana2015]

Good point there. Personally I'd rather we start using glass bottles again instead of plastic for things like soda and whatnot. I doubt that's ever going to happen though.

Well one option I've heard is soy based plastics, and bamboo fiber for other things like packaging. Obviously neither is a perfect solution, but bamboo grows something like 2 feet a day under the right conditions, and can be harvested without killing the plant, resulting in an insanely renewable source of materiel for things like paper products and whatnot, and I hear it makes great flooring for houses. I'm not sure how it treats the dirt under it though, so that could be a concern.

[Nate]

Actually as far as recycling goes, I've heard recycling plastic is bad, like mech said. Also, recycling paper is more or less a useless gesture since even the recycled paper has to kill new trees to be usable...wood pulp is lost in the paper recycling process, and has to be replaced by fresh wood pulp...which of course comes from trees that get cut down.

Really, the only materials that have obvious clear benefits to recycling are glass and metal, especially aluminum cans. Glass is infinitely reusable so the benefits are great, and it lowers the defects caused by producing new glass. Recycling aluminum produces significantly less CO2 than manufacturing new aluminum (95% less in fact), takes 95% less material, and reduces the need for aluminum mining which costs money, fossil fuels, and destroys land. So always recycle cans! ALWAYS!

And yes, let's not bring global warming into this hmm? We have enough locked threads on this board as it is.

[Htom Sirveaux]

I recycle my bottles and cans (just clap your hands, just clap your hands). That's about as much as I care about the whole issue. Let the people who are paid to know what they're talking about handle it.

[Dante]

I was very pro-industry as a kid... mostly because Captain Planet made going green seem like what Barney did to going purple. The people behind the movement didn't seem to be the most intelligent group, dressed in their hippy suits and what not, and so I laughed at it a bit... I was even angry when our neighborhood installed mandatory recycling... with nasty letters and threats of fines sent to people who failed to sort their garbage and the proceeds going to the city to boot (little dictators). In fact, I still am obstinately against the use of threats to achieve this end or cities making a major profit from it.

Ultimately, though I am now avidly a fan of making things "green". I am a deep fan of nature and not the kind that is fenced in... I want the type of nature that surrounds and envelops me, where I can still find adventure around every grove. Living in this city is simply poisonous to my health, but more importantly, to my soul.

I won't - I can't say whether it is so, but God's given dominion of nature to man in Genesis, is in my opinion, not an open invitation to pillage nature, but an invitation to restore and nurture nature. That is, I see us as the tenders of the Garden and not the consumers.

I would also like to point out that, despite the fact that this may or may not be the end times, it would seem bad habit for man to plunder the world for its resources here - at least if he expects to live for an eternity elsewhere. After all, if we have to keep Heaven pristine as well this won't do at all. Furthermore, even if God does provide for our every need, I might warn that our need to grow as Christians and appreciate our environment and it's fragile nature is more important then our "need" for the goods harvested from within. In which case- God may choose to bless our first need to the bereavement of the latter, lesser and perhaps ultimately unnecessary (not a need) desire.

Then yes, from the perspective of conservation and protecting the natural world I am thankful for, I support "going green"... but I would also caution that not all that glitters is gold, and hence, not everything labeled green grows life. New technologies have their own host of ills and if we replace one devil for another... well, we may just be in for more trouble. The best way to approach this is to simply use less, which means sharpening your sword against the forces of inner greed. Find value within, find value in people and find value by being in the place and moment and not from things and you'll be a long ways closer to a happier lifestyle.

[Nate]

I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you, Pascal. Environmentalism is absolutely a good thing, but we're humans, and thus all our solutions aren't perfect. Ethanol is a prime example of how what was a seemingly good solution turned out to not be so great.

Electric cars, however, I think are definitely the right way to go, but they need more research and money to get it off the ground. It's frustrating that as long as oil/gas is profitable, companies aren't going to spend as much money as they could (or should) into electric cars.

But again, Pascal is right too in that finding new energy sources is good, but we really need to work more on reducing our intake and consumption. I already know that I'm never going to buy a particular brand of corn dogs again. Why? Because the corn dogs come in a big box but they're individually wrapped. It's a waste of plastic, and will serve to do nothing but fill up landfills. Plus, it's just a pain to have to unwrap like four or five corn dogs before I can cook them.

I've noticed KFC has introduced these new reusable plastic containers for their sides. I have mixed feelings about things like this. On one hand, it's reusable and definitely isn't as bad for the environment as their styrofoam containers. On the other hand, I can't help but feel most people won't care that they're reusable and will just toss them, making it a wasted effort.

[Yuki-Anne]

Well said, Pascal. Especially the bit about "using less." I think we as Christians can help the environment and our own spiritual growth by saying no to the materialism that is enveloping our culture.

Speaking of more biodegradable materials, did you guys notice how a few months back, SunChips changed their bags to more eco-friendly ones? They're seriously the noisiest chip bags in the history of the modern snack.

I grew up really close to a landfill, and it always made me really sad. My house was right by a beautiful little desert canyon, and we'd go hiking there almost every day, but a lot of times people would just toss their junk there instead of the landfill with no regard for the beauty of the place or the animals that still lived there, or the people who liked to walk there. Sometimes they'd throw away perfectly good things, too. It makes me sad when people are so focused on their junk, getting rid of the old and bringing in the new at a ridiculous rate, that they don't even notice the beautiful things in this world that money can't buy them.

Here in Japan, the speedy pre-war industrialization left the forests in a pretty sorry state, so the government instilled a policy requiring people to plant trees. Now it's fairly gorgeous, at least out here in the country. I may not think of every aspect of "going green" as valuable, but I think that planting trees is a grand thing to do.

[Atria35]

Pascal- that's awesome. And I wish more people thought like that.

[Furen]

I'm gonna start by dropping a little piece of awesome into this thread:

I loved the part that said "Keep the lolitics out of it"

[mechana2015]

Speaking of more biodegradable materials, did you guys notice how a few months back, SunChips changed their bags to more eco-friendly ones? They're seriously the noisiest chip bags in the history of the modern snack.

Yeah, I know someone who was involved in the SunChips eco-friendly campaign. I'll have to get one of the new SunChips and see what you're talking about...I didn't think there could be anything nosier than a darn Fritos bag.

[Cloud500]

I hate those bags SO much. It's great that they're biodegradable, but they are ridiculously noisy.