An open discussion on what constitutes "goof-off material" from "general material".

[blkmage]

Yeah, it's definitely possible to do funny threads that aren't just spam. And in fact, that's the norm at the forums I spend my time at. I don't think it'd hurt to encourage people to put a little more effort into their posts and enforce a standard.

[Lochaber Axe]

May I issue my opinion as an old, old lurker?

The issue really isn't the Jesus Statue thread I think, but the maturation of CAA. As many of the older members like myself grow... well... older, it is possible one would tend to see the Goof Off thread as wasted space. That is however merely one point of view. Should any thread on CAA be tantamount to wasted space? I believe no. I don't think gaming in any form of fashion is wasted space though.

I have always thought the "Goof Off" name to be a misnomer, because what is the general atmosphere of CAA? I have always thought of it as light and breezy and such a thread devoted to even lighter things would end up being just want we consider spam and games.

The question that we all must ask is at what line does a game become merely spam?

[goldenspines]

LOL I derp'd, but I just woke up not too long ago. Y'all knew what I meant, XD.

I guess if a thread didn't want to take itself seriously, it would have to be really obvious about the fact that it's a joke. I'm thinking of one Goof-Off thread that happened not too long ago about existentialism or nihilism, or one of those philosophical "isms." Then again, that thread was supposed to be a joke and it still turned serious.

Other than that, I think a lot of what we consider silly spam threads would be just fine on the other boards. We'd probably have to implement a stricter policy on posting threads with substance. For example, a thread that just says "i liek cheese lol" should be deleted in my opinion, and the OP should be encouraged to try again by adding more substance to the thread. There's a huge difference between "i liek cheese lol" and a thread about the person's favorite kind of cheese and why it's their favorite, and then asking the other members what kind of cheese they like.

Ah, okay, thanks for clarifying. I see what you mean. And I do agree with you in terms of encouraging members putting more thought into the threads they create (even in Goof Off, I suppose, which might solve half the issue there XD; ) and even asking themselves before they post, "How can I make this thread better and more exciting for the people reading it?" Of course, I make boring threads, so I'm not a good example to follow. XD But people such as Blkmage and Cognitive Gear to name a couple of examples, make great threads that get everyone involved and talking.

[Furen]

So it seems the consensus here is anything joke/game related belongs in goof off where as more serious/debate typed threads belong in general?

[LadyRushia]

Goof-Off is already joke/game and that's where we have a problem. It should be games only and then anything else that's funny can be placed elsewhere on the site. And debates have no place on CAA at all.

[Furen]

when I said debate I used it because I couldn't find the right word for it, I was thinking more like for general talk. (Pardon for the confusion)

[TheSubtleDoctor]

...we've ended up with sort of a sub-community that's grown [in Goof-Off]...

And it may be my own experience in learning the ropes of forum communities, but I've found that encouraging good posting in regular subforums is a far better way to introduce and encourage people to participate than giving them a forum where they can mess around indefinitely. The problem with branching out from Goof Off is that the style of posting there is extremely different from the other subforum that there is no way to reasonably ease into it except to have been posting on those subforums already. In that case, it's kind of redundant to me.

This is a very insightful point blkmage, and I would like to tarry here for a bit. Most of what follows will be only slightly related (but nonetheless, related) to the thrust of this thread.

I have no problem with a subforum devoted to Silliness or to Word/Image Games. In fact, if you do some looking in select Goof-Off threads, you will find my posts. Posts by 30 year-olds exist there as well as posts by 13 year-olds. You will even find Goof-Off threads started by veteran CAAers, so I don't think that maturity, age, or "paid dues" serve as a line of demarcation for participation in the Goof-Off subforum. Or they shouldn't in theory...yet what blkmage says is quite true: Goof-Off has become its own sub-community, a cul-de-sac for new blood.

This splintering of the CAA community has been bothering me quite a bit lately. But isn't a degree of fragmentation expected, if not outright desired, on a forum with such a broad focus? Sure, you can't help that people are going to spend more time in certain sbusections of the site: the music kids hang in Jam Session a lot, while others mostly post in the Anime section. Certain users might not have the time/money/inclination to watch much anime or read much manga, but they want to stay plugged in to the community]forum[/U], I believe we at CAA ought to take steps to ensure that it ceases being a sub-community. We should offer more incentive for younger/newer/shyerl/less knowledgeable//less factually accurate members to post outside of of Goof-Off; that is, we should encourage them rather than discourage them. If someone gets a fact wrong or gives an opinion we think is rubbish, we should educate them/offer a counter-argument in a way that is edifying and loving while still getting our point across (not saying to baby people and allow an anything-goes policy). Surely toning down the biting sarcasm won't drain the fun out of the forum or ruin anyone's experience? And perhaps that member who is initially shy and unsure will soon blossom into one of CAAs leading lights of anime-related discussion or even a moderator. Perhaps not. But that doesn't matter.

Though I don't hold much hope for my post being heard, much less implemented, I firmly believe that the kinds of changes/shifts I have described will only enhance the community by deepening both friendships and discussions.

Notice: I am guilty of this sort of thing, so I am not blaming anyone.

*Edit I find the notion of "graduating" from Goof-Off to be contrary to the spirit of CAA. Merriam Webster's dictionary defines the verb graduate as, "to pass from one stage of experience, proficiency, or prestige to a usually higher one [bold is mine]." There shouldn't be an initiation, real or implied, to get into the "real" CAA community. I know (hope?) that isn't what people necessarily mean when they use the term graduate, but the language does suggest that there are levels of superiority in the CAA community.

Also, this is not a post meant to scold the mods or call them out. They certainly do a fine job here. This post is meant to challenge all members of CAA to have a different outlook.

[Furen]

Going off a bunch of points the doctor had I have a few thoughts of my own.

For the goof off section being for new users (which I am) how would we know when we would "graduate" in that sense, your post count doesn't go up so that would be one less way of knowing when you have finished.

I agree in the comfort level being too set. I generally post in the general or goof off sections although I like the other sections but general/goof off seem to be more diverse.

The way the doctor explained it you also see different parts of this site as their stand alone area, which more or less becomes like a club, so it starts what the CAA has said they didn't want to go to with the clubs/groups of people who don't usually intermingle (unless on the chat).

That's my 2 cents worth. Very good points blkmage and the doctor.

[LadyRushia]

There's no special ceremony or requirement needed to post anywhere outside of Goof-Off, but the feeling that there is such a thing is understandable. I lurked in a lot of threads as a new member before posting. That intimidation is just something you have to get over in my opinion.

Rude posts don't help at all. That's why we call them out as best we can when we see it happen. Of course, sometimes we mods get backlash from the people responsible saying "Oh, we weren't being rude! We're just misunderstood!" Sometimes that's the case and other times it isn't. We can't always tell what's really going on in all instances because this is the internet.

[mechana2015]

For the goof off section being for new users (which I am) how would we know when we would "graduate" in that sense, your post count doesn't go up so that would be one less way of knowing when you have finished.

I agree in the comfort level being too set. I generally post in the general or goof off sections although I like the other sections but general/goof off seem to be more diverse.

The way the doctor explained it you also see different parts of this site as their stand alone area, which more or less becomes like a club, so it starts what the CAA has said they didn't want to go to with the clubs/groups of people who don't usually intermingle (unless on the chat).

The disadvantage of the goof off section being the new members section is, as you said, the lack of there being some sort of numeric measure of 'posting competency'.

This is not only a mental barrier, with people second guessing whether they're 'good enough' to post in general, but can become a physical barrier to the community as well, since the chat room, one of the universal centers of the community is limited to members with a certain post count. I'm aware that the post requirement for chat is pretty low, but recently there have been other features bandied about that could also function as gathering places for members of all ages, provided they had a sufficient post count. The post counts being suggested for those sections of the site were notably higher and since goof off posts are no-go for gaining the post count needed to participate, maintaining the Goof Off as a place for 'new people' would be effectively delaying or preventing legitimate members from participating in sections of the site.

There may have to be some sort of other activity to promote the use of the main boards by new members and make it so they don't feel so intimidated, but still understand that they need to post on topic and with some contribution to the discussions.

[Furen]

I like all the points that were brought up. As a new member I never had any intimidation for being a new member, I just jumped into that but I can see how some people wouldn't like that if they have never been on a forum before or just don't feel comfortable. Even though we've been discussing the "promotion" from goof off which we know does not exist, we haven't ended up discussing the initial point of what deserves to be in General. We do have a better understanding of what constitutes to being goof off, although not crystal clear it is better than at the initial of this thread, but we still don't have a defined image of what is allowed in the General section.

All the ideas are great but we should start getting down to what needs to be done.

[Rusty Claymore]

Just a comment on the "graduation" term.
The sense in which I originally used it was personal. It's not that you graduate on the site somehow, but that your confidence in your forum skillz is at a higher level. My focus (in my head, at least) was on personal abilities and confidence. Goof Off tends to be a little less consequential if you make a mistake. In General, a slight misenterpratation of wording can get you hammered pretty hard by some of our well-meaning but more feisty members, because it's "serious." I've seen this, though for obvious reasons I'm not going to name instances. The same misenterpatation in Goof Off will be pointed out, usually with a joke, and folks laugh about it, and no one gets burned. XP
So as long as the new whateverwedo keeps a novice "safe zone" of some sort, we'll still have the friendly, light, breezey feel that was more eloquently put by Lochaber Axe. XD

[mechana2015]

The whole site should be a novice safe zone.

[Furen]

Well we know that but it's a bit harder for new members to see that at first. They don't know how comfortable we get, I shorten down names as soon as I read the username, some people don't like that I know but if nobody tells me I assume it's safe to call them that. Others on the other hand need to be warmed up and welcomed in a different way.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Goof Off tends to be a little less consequential if you make a mistake. In General, a slight misinterpretation of wording can get you hammered pretty hard by some of our well-meaning but more feisty members, because it's "serious." I've seen this, though for obvious reasons I'm not going to name instances. The same misinterpretation in Goof Off will be pointed out, usually with a joke, and folks laugh about it, and no one gets burned. XP

Exhibit A.

The whole site should be a novice safe zone.

Indeed, or at least I would like to think so.

[Furen]

We should figure out a way to correct someone in general without cracking a joke to break it nicely without the thread heading straight for the goof off area.

[mechana2015]

We should figure out a way to correct someone in general without cracking a joke to break it nicely without the thread heading straight for the goof off area.

The easiest way is to remind yourself that you're talking to a real human being with feelings and emotions, then correct them in the manner that would make sense if you were talking to them in person. Usually the best way is quick, quiet and to the point without calling names or blowing things out of proportion.

Addendum unrelated:

I forgot to respond when Shooby mentioned that the moves were being perceived as punitive measures.

They are seen as punitive measures because of the way goof off is structured. Moving a thread to another forum (general to anime for example) causes no change in the rules of discussion or content guidelines. Moving a thread to goof off changes the rules the thread is operating under and whether the posts 'count' for post counts.

A hypothetical example would be a thread about... cats. Too many pictures were posted from LOLcats on the thread so it gets moved to Goof Off, and suddenly the thread is hijacked and turned into a catgirls thread, then a random images thread, then an RP about one of the random images springs up. Meanwhile the OP has given up on talking about cats, including the post they were getting ready that answered a question about one of the types of cats in a picture that was posted when the LOLcats showed up. They won't start another cat thread because they jsut made one and the discussion will get killed for at least a few weeks, and more likely than not that user won't post another thread about cats. Hypothetical? Yes. Far off base? I don't think so (but I wrote it).

The end result of the move is the destruction of the thread and discouragement of the discussion, at least for a time. It's not intended to be punitive, but it ends up that way anyhow, both punishing the OP and the users who tried to bring a little on topic levity to the thread.

[GeneD]

@Nate: I didn't mean to compare those thread really on quality. Maybe what I should have said is that they are similar with regards to quick thinking by sharp members, using humour to diffuse potentially problematic debates. I think the election thread had added humour due to the direction it could have gone but of course I agree that the time and effort put into the statue pictures by members definitely puts them a cut above random photobucket pictures.

Question: If someone does make more of those statue pics, where should they go?

I see the point about bridging between Goof Off and the rest of the forum being difficult because they are so different, although I can't think of any solutions.

[Furen]

The easiest way is to remind yourself that you're talking to a real human being with feelings and emotions, then correct them in the manner that would make sense if you were talking to them in person. Usually the best way is quick, quiet and to the point without calling names or blowing things out of proportion.

Another way to do that would also be PMing that person (Still saying it nicely of course) instead of blurting it out right on the forums. I generally don't correct people in the forums because I worry about how they will take it, so I usually just end up posting and try to fix it with out making it look like I did. This also does not mean I know everything because in no way do I.

[ADXC]

It's never really nice to call someone out in a thread unless it is completely necessary for whatever reason(This is a very touchy thing, so I will not define absolutes.).

So yeah Furen is right that PMing does need to be implemented more in this area. That way, the issue does not have to reach those not involved and bring them into it, but stay within the confines of two to a few people.

[Radical Dreamer]

[quote="TheSubtleDoctor (post: 1415981)"]Whatever becomes of the Goof-Off subforum, I believe we at CAA ought to take steps to ensure that it ceases being a sub-community. We should offer more incentive for younger/newer/shyerl/less knowledgeable//less factually accurate members to post outside of of Goof-Off]


So this post (the whole thing, but I'm quoting this part for emphasis) pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about this and exactly how I feel like new members and old members should treat each other, regardless of what forum they're posting in. Good points all around!

[Rusty Claymore]

Exhibit A.

Now I'm confused.
But if it's an irony, I think I see where you are coming from, so please read it, "result in a sudden increase in the attention of some of the forum's-"

That brings up the point of reginal and sociologic differences, but I think that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[Radical Dreamer]

Now I'm confused.
But if it's an irony, I think I see where you are coming from, so please read it, "result in a sudden increase in the attention of some of the forum's-"

That brings up the point of reginal and sociologic differences, but I think that's a whole different kettle of fish.

I think what he's saying is that your post just proved his point, which was that Goof Off feels safer for new members when it shouldn't be. The whole board should feel safe, and new members shouldn't be intimidated from posting by older members, whether intentionally or not. Thing is, that's how it is right now, just because a lot of us that post on the rest of the boards don't often realize how hard we're coming across when we make a correction or point something out to a newer member. XD

[shooraijin]

A hypothetical example would be a thread about... cats. Too many pictures were posted from LOLcats on the thread so it gets moved to Goof Off, and suddenly the thread is hijacked and turned into a catgirls thread, then a random images thread, then an RP about one of the random images springs up. Meanwhile the OP has given up on talking about cats, including the post they were getting ready that answered a question about one of the types of cats in a picture that was posted when the LOLcats showed up. They won't start another cat thread because they jsut made one and the discussion will get killed for at least a few weeks, and more likely than not that user won't post another thread about cats. Hypothetical? Yes. Far off base? I don't think so (but I wrote it).

The end result of the move is the destruction of the thread and discouragement of the discussion, at least for a time. It's not intended to be punitive, but it ends up that way anyhow, both punishing the OP and the users who tried to bring a little on topic levity to the thread.

But what was the real problem, moving the thread or the fact the thread was already LOLCATted?

Your point is well-taken, but I think there is ample blame to go around. If people aren't controlling themselves in a thread, that's just as bad, and by the time we show up and move the thread over that's just the last straw of a larger haystack. A little levity is cool and appreciated. But there have been threads where that got wildly out of control, and speaking personally for myself, I'd be more sympathetic to this view if more self-policing took place.

[Furen]

I think what he's saying is that your post just proved his point, which was that Goof Off feels safer for new members when it shouldn't be. The whole board should feel safe, and new members shouldn't be intimidated from posting by older members, whether intentionally or not. Thing is, that's how it is right now, just because a lot of us that post on the rest of the boards don't often realize how hard we're coming across when we make a correction or point something out to a newer member. XD

This again shows my point that we should not really correct unless it is needed and if it is needed pm because it's quicker and more private, I forgot a rule about link posting, someone did tell me but if it was PMed to me I would have got it quicker and corrected it, but I saw it too late and my post has a mod removal thing on it... It was also locked so I can't fix it to apologize.

[mechana2015]

But what was the real problem, moving the thread or the fact the thread was already LOLCATted?

In my example I personally would say that moving the thread was the problem since posting pictures of cats in a thread about cats (even if they have some funny words written across them) is still on topic, and doesn't prevent the thread from having text posts about cats after them that are perfectly serious.

I think part of the concern is that there is no easy line that says 'if x many posts are images an a row, whether they're on topic or not, this thread is now unable to be recovered as a conversation and will be moved'. The lack of clarity means that even the best intended attempts at humor, especially based on images, suddenly become labeled off topic when they hit some sort of unknown point. Should there only be 3 images related to the topic allowed in a row before an on topic text post is required? 10 images? One page? We as users don't know so we don't know where to step back and steer the topic back before it gets instantly moved. Acts of moderation are perceived as punitive when users don't know why it happened. They presume something went wrong somewhere, even if they can't see it, and in peoples minds moves become punishment for being 'too silly'.

This gets back to the original concern I had when I answered the opening post, of how we aren't really clear, as users, what Goof Off should be for, and that there's a disparity between the purpose for it and the perception of it. It seems that it's taken as a catch all for humor, off topic threads and forum games, but the way it's structured means that threads with legitimate content don't survive well there and aren't likely to recover any discussion once placed there, and the on topic content is lost for good as the thread is sunk under ten or so game threads that update once every ten minutes.

[ChristianKitsune]

I think we saw a good example of this recently...Because the Goof Off Thread is SO open, users really don't understand what it is for.

Recently we had a really fun looking roleplay thread created in the Goof Off section. It was originally put there, because the user wasn't sure if it would be serious enough to go the RP section, but if it had remained in the Goof Off section, it probably would have been buried in a matter of hours or days...

Right now, I think that particular subforum is way to open, people can and do sometimes go a little too far in it.

I think we do need some defining terms- what are our boundaries here? I'm with a lot of the members here. We don't want to break any rules, or hurt anyone after all. We just want to continue to have fun here, and know where things belong!

[Tsukuyomi]

I really hate to say this, but at most times, moving a thread to Goof-Off does kill the opening post's all together. It's actually pretty rare for it to go back to the topic on hand once moved to Goof-Off. Why do you ask, because anything goes in Goof-Off. Being on topic isn't really important in there. All because it's Goof-Off.

I'm not saying this always happens, but I do remember a thread or two (or more) I have moved to Goof-Off that didn't return to the original topic :-? I'm not saying you can't branch out to something relating to the OP, but it became something totally different.

So, I can understand the "Once threads are moved to Goof-Off, they die", but I can also see the other side of this argument,"If things get off topic or silly, pitch it into Goof-Off." Hmmm, that last part... Looks kind of odd once it's typed out and reread o.O;

Now that we know the problem (?), is there any solutions? Halfway points even? Both sides have very valuable points, so there must be a middle ground EVERYONE (?) can come to :-?

[shooraijin]

In my example I personally would say that moving the thread was the problem since posting pictures of cats in a thread about cats (even if they have some funny words written across them) is still on topic, and doesn't prevent the thread from having text posts about cats after them that are perfectly serious.

But will they? How could they after the context of the thread is already lost?

I think part of the concern is that there is no easy line that says 'if x many posts are images an a row, whether they're on topic or not, this thread is now unable to be recovered as a conversation and will be moved'. The lack of clarity means that even the best intended attempts at humor, especially based on images, suddenly become labeled off topic when they hit some sort of unknown point. Should there only be 3 images related to the topic allowed in a row before an on topic text post is required? 10 images? One page? We as users don't know so we don't know where to step back and steer the topic back before it gets instantly moved. Acts of moderation are perceived as punitive when users don't know why it happened. They presume something went wrong somewhere, even if they can't see it, and in peoples minds moves become punishment for being 'too silly'.

This gets back to the original concern I had when I answered the opening post, of how we aren't really clear, as users, what Goof Off should be for, and that there's a disparity between the purpose for it and the perception of it. It seems that it's taken as a catch all for humor, off topic threads and forum games, but the way it's structured means that threads with legitimate content don't survive well there and aren't likely to recover any discussion once placed there, and the on topic content is lost for good as the thread is sunk under ten or so game threads that update once every ten minutes.

Let's make one thing clear: we're not letting threads go out of control either. Like I say, if people dislike this, they need to police themselves better. People are complaining that Goof Off is becoming a second-class forum, but that's no excuse for messing around. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not letting the rest of the forums become a content-free zone because no one wants their thread in Goof Off but isn't willing to behave.

That said, I agree with you that there is no hard and guiding line, and that's why I proposed (and Mith concurred) with warning before making sudden moves and to have two eyes on it before hand. I won't dispute that moving a thread to Goof Off is less likely to let it get back on track, but I do dispute that moving it to Goof Off is the only reason it wouldn't. If people disagree, prove me wrong and do it right.

For the record, as far as I'm concerned, any explicit or overt joke thread can always go in Goof Off. This is only about threads that get moved there.

[mechana2015]

I like the warning and two eyes solution, at the very least, but I'm still also concerned about the Goof Off as a whole. As a lot of people have mentioned, it needs a redefinition and clarification of purpose, because it's not just acting as the catch all for silly and random threads, but also the catch all for threads that people are unsure about, like the one CK mentioned. New members tend to post there because they're unsure of the definitions of the subforums, relegating activity and posts that belong in anime, RP or general to what is essentially the wrong location.