I talk way too much

[Nate]

That's not literally what my problem is that I need prayer on (though I wouldn't be surprised if some people read the title, but not the content, and decided that was the request in its entirety). No, the problem I have is far more complex, and far deeper, and I only state that I talk way too much in a self-deprecating way to state that this is going to probably be a very long post.

My problem, unfortunately, has a likelihood of turning political and/or theological. For that reason, I'm going to keep things as vague as possible, only saying what is absolutely necessary for understanding and trying to keep as many opinions out as possible (though it's impossible to have anything I write be 100% neutral, I will at least put forth effort).

Lately, I've become very disillusioned with Christianity. Now, that doesn't mean what I'm sure some people here think it means. When I say I have become disillusioned with Christianity, I mean the religion itself, not the concepts of Jesus and God (which I do still very much believe in). When I say I have become very disillusioned with Christianity, I mean that I personally find reprehensible many people who say "I am Christian."

Ah, now you see why I must be vague. In theory, this seems like a very simple solution. "Don't worry about those other people," some might say. "Don't let them bother you." Yet, I can't help but be bothered. When you claim yourself a member of a certain group, you can't help but be judged by others according to the preconceived notions they have of such a group. Thus, I find that if I were to say "I am a Christian" I would be immediately derided by others, who would assume many false things about me that are actually true of other Christians, but not myself. Yes, I can always try to challenge and shatter their misconceptions about me personally, but invariably their response would be "If you dislike what other Christians do, why do you call yourself one? At the very least, why don't you try and change them so they aren't looked upon in the way that they are?"

The answer to that is that one, I can't think of a better word to call myself. Anything I could even hope to call myself has been taken and soiled by others. I call myself a Christian out of exasperation that there is really no other word I can think of to describe it. Even neutral terms such as "religious" or "theist" seem to have been soiled.

Two, I can't change these people, and even if I could, the problem is that these other Christians look upon me with the same contempt I view them. They see me as reprehensible, they hold beliefs I think are wrong, and likewise, I hold beliefs they think are wrong. We can't see eye-to-eye; indeed, they want to change me to conform to themselves as much as I want to change them to conform to myself. It's pointless. They say I'm a Christian in name-only, and I think the same of them.

We should be brothers, but we can't ever be. Put simply, I can't love them. I know I should. I know they're technically on the same "side," but I feel that they are more my enemy than others. At least with atheists, wiccans, pagans, whatever, I can say that they are ignorant, or perhaps lost but well-meaning, or confused. I can say that they are at least rational, but misguided. With those who call themselves Christians, I can't feel that way. They're not lost, or at least if they are, they won't admit it, and would instead say that I am the one who is lost, and won't admit it.

We can't ever be reconciled, I think. That's part of the problem of why I can't love them. With an atheist/agnostic/wiccan, there is at least the feeling that perhaps someday, a seed that was planted in them will grow, and then it will be a wonderful thing. With this, it feels like the fellow Christians had a plant that sprouted, but then withered away and died. A seed may take time to grow, but a dead plant can't ever be revived. I feel like I must "write them off" as it were. I know I shouldn't. I know God can work miracles. But with the way I see things, it appears that a miracle is far-off, possibly not even within my lifetime.

I don't like to hate them. It's distasteful to me, and every time I even so much as approach the thought "Well one day when they are judged, they will see the error of their ways," I feel awful. I feel awful because, well, I feel (whether or not this is true is a matter of opinion) that they have the same thoughts about me. And that leads into another bit of a problem. I feel that they feel this way (which, again, is an opinion and not necessarily true), so I do not want to think like them because then I will become like them. But at the same time, I feel that if I purposely try to not think like that, I may become prideful, a matter of "Well at least I don't think like THEY do, so that makes me better than them," which is also wrong and again, makes me feel like I will become like them. Sort of a "damned if I do and damned if I don't" scenario.

Again, I've tried to keep this as opinion-free and non-political/theological as I can. I do understand, however, that given the subject, it is probably impossible to avoid reading those things into it, and that this can cause a lot of arguments and problems on the board. So at the first sign of an argument, I can understand the necessity of this being locked. Also, if the mods feel that this thread would be better being locked pre-emptively to avoid any potential arguments, I completely support that as well.

But in short, the problem is I feel like I can't be a Christian because of what being a Christian means to society currently, but I don't know of anywhere else to go. I know I should just live my life, but I also feel bad not being able to solve the problem, and the fact that in a way I am an unwilling participant in a sort of "civil war" in our religion. The stress of knowing that I will never see eye-to-eye with others that share my faith, and that they will never see eye-to-eye with me either, and that I can't ever truly love them because of this...which I realize is wrong, but I don't know what else to do. You could say "Try praying for them" and that's fine, but the problem is that they are also praying for me because they think I'm wrong. Which prayer would God listen to? I think they're wrong and they think I'm wrong, and praying about it seems like a passive-agressive type of thing, like "I hope God shows you just how wrong you are, because man you couldn't be any more wrong" and even if they were to change because of my prayers, I would still feel a sort of "See I knew you guys were wrong and now you're changing because I prayed for you to" type deal.

It's very frustrating. I don't know how to deal with it. It's actually been a source of a lot of anger and hopelessness in my life. So anyway. Yeah. I talk too much.

[Mr. Rogers]

I don't wanna oversimplify this issue because it is a large one. I will not offer a complete explanation or anything, just a few quick thoughts. These issues can, unfortunately, be common sometimes. I am personally lucky to know a couple of great Christian communities where Jesus is really being lived. Maybe it would help you if you really searched for a Christian community where you can find the love you are looking for. It took me about five years to find the ones I have no, so it might not happen quick, but they are out there. There are some Christians out there (more than we might think) who are really doing great stuff and really loving and being loved.

[MomentOfInertia]

If I'm distilling your post right then it sounds like you severely obfuscated some of my dad's opinions.

My recommendation is that you look up the history of the parts of Christianity that you find yourself closest to, where they came from, why they exist. this will help you to better defend your positions.

Follow with reading up on what parts of the faith these others have based there positions on. this will allow you to better argue that they are wrong.

A few years ago we were visited by the Jehovah's witnesses, there was a pastor and what we believe was one of the newer members of the parish. My father had the latter halfway converted before they left, haven't seen them since.

My point is, if you know your differences, know them well, know the history of them, you can make a very convincing argument for your side.

On the other hand this may just deepen your understanding of how wrong they are, thus making your current problem worse.

If you like I could recommend a few of my dad's books to get you started.

[goldenspines]

For the record, I don't see the need for this thread to be locked at all, providing everyone keeps their heads on straight.

Like Jim said, this is somewhat of a complex topic. But, if I'm understanding exactly what you are saying, I do know how you feel, if that helps. I often bash heads with a lot of fellow Christians over this issue.
The only advice I can really give is to put your trust in God and Him alone. Yes, the rest of the Christian world could be idiots and they could all be barking up the wrong tree on how a "christian" should be, but only God can change their hearts and help them see the truth.
I think that even if people pray for you (or me) to see the "truth" they believe, God doesn't sway to someone's truth over another's; He is the one and only Truth. Heck, both sides could be wrong if we're not following God's truth. There's no "close enough to the truth" for God, I think.
So, I guess instead of praying, "Dear Lord, please help so and so see that the way I follow you is the only way." We should be praying more for God's will to be done in other's lives and not trying to "prove them wrong" (as awesome as that could make us feel sometimes). Should we try to control what God's will for others is? No. God handles that because He knows our and other's hearts and minds more than we do (or more than we think we do).

Concerning hopelessness and frustration about this, I feel you there too. And personally, I often just try to ignore it. But, if it does start bugging me too much, I take it to God and plead with Him; letting Him sort it out with me and with others. There's a lot less head bashing that way, I think. >.>;


Even if I'm totally off track, I'll be praying that God will give you insight and wisdom on this.

[Radical Dreamer]

But in short, the problem is I feel like I can't be a Christian because of what being a Christian means to society currently, but I don't know of anywhere else to go. I know I should just live my life, but I also feel bad not being able to solve the problem, and the fact that in a way I am an unwilling participant in a sort of "civil war" in our religion. The stress of knowing that I will never see eye-to-eye with others that share my faith, and that they will never see eye-to-eye with me either, and that I can't ever truly love them because of this...which I realize is wrong, but I don't know what else to do. You could say "Try praying for them" and that's fine, but the problem is that they are also praying for me because they think I'm wrong. Which prayer would God listen to? I think they're wrong and they think I'm wrong, and praying about it seems like a passive-agressive type of thing, like "I hope God shows you just how wrong you are, because man you couldn't be any more wrong" and even if they were to change because of my prayers, I would still feel a sort of "See I knew you guys were wrong and now you're changing because I prayed for you to" type deal.

It's very frustrating. I don't know how to deal with it. It's actually been a source of a lot of anger and hopelessness in my life. So anyway. Yeah. I talk too much.

Let me preface this by saying that I totally understand how you feel, and will definitely be praying. XD

I think the main thing about Christians that everyone forgets sometimes (including Christians) is that even though we're saved by God's grace, we are still very human, and are, therefore, very fallible. People who are Christians ought to hold themselves to a higher standard, but given the fact that people rarely do what they ought to do, this doesn't happen far too often. Just because we're saved doesn't mean we're perfect; in fact, all of us are flawed in one way or another (or a lot of ways). Some people's sins are more socially acceptable than others (pride/haughtiness as opposed to homosexuality, for instance), but in the end they're all the same in God's eyes.

The best thing to remember in this case is to look to Jesus for any example of how a Christian (or follower of Christ; I prefer that term, myself, and agree wholeheartedly that the word "Christian" has earned itself an awful connotation in today's society) ought to act, and then ask Him to give you the strength to follow His example to the best of your ability. This would include loving your enemies, including those who persecute (or in your case, condemn) you. Society's view of Christianity is extremely skewed, but that certainly doesn't mean you can't consider yourself a Christian (or follower of Christ, Believer, etc.). I think the first step to correcting the view that society has is to start acting how Jesus acted.

On getting along with other Christians, yeah, you're probably going to have to agree to disagree on a lot of major issues. Instead of praying that their opinions will change (which, like you said, could go either way), pray that God would help you to look past their opinions and love them as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (and that they would do the same for you). A lot of people, both Christians and non-Christians, get really hung up on political opinions, so much so that it can be damaging to relationships (hence why we keep it off the boards! XD). But people are made up of more than just their political and theological opinions, and if you can get past that aspect, it can be possible to accept those who disagree with you, even if you have to avoid certain topics to keep things peaceful.

I feel like I left something out, so I may be back to comment again later. Anyways, I will definitely be praying for ya, and I hope something I said makes sense! XD

[J.R.]

If you're saying that you find yourself "unable" to love these people, then first and foremost...That is what you should be seeking. As Christians, we are commanded to love. It's the foundation of how we are to be. So I would say that's where your immediate attention should be directed. When we can't bring ourselves to love someone, we can't truly affect them in any positive way, even if we're right on a certain theological matter. I honestly can relate to some of the things you're saying Nate and there's a bunch of stuff I wanted to type in here. But first, I just felt that needed to be said. I'll think on this some more and get back in here again. I will be praying for you though. I hope that the Lord will bring you comfort in the matter.

[bkilbour]

If I ever find a perfect church with perfectly good people and perfectly good ideas, then I will never step foot in it, and neither should you; we'd ruin it. Anyone would.

Nate, people are imperfect. If we held all people to a standard that forgets the psalms that say "there is none righteous, no not one" and "all have fallen short of the glory of God," then everyone would be disillusioned to the point of disbelief.

I will pray for you, man. I think you're feeling what Paul felt when he wrote his first letter to the Corinthians - they were horribly hypocritical in what they were doing! Some were sleeping with their stepmothers, others were taking each other to court to have each other thrown in jail, and fighting over which spirit of which apostle represented them before God (a clearly blasphemous idea). Yet Paul gives all glory to God, who would save such bungling sinners as us.

[Cognitive Gear]

This is something that I definitely understand. It's a very complex issue that has as many facets as there are individual Christians (used here as a catch-all for anyone who makes claim to Jesus). So I think the best thing that I can do is share the conclusions that I came to.

There isn't, and probably won't ever be, a solution to it that will result in the face of Christianity looking as it should. It's sad, but given that we are all humans, our faults will inevitably tarnish Christ's good name.

So what it came down to, for me, was that it's not a change in others that I should be seeking. It's a change within myself that I should be seeking. This wasn't a change in theological or political outlook (though it eventually led to one, in my case) but a change in attitude. Instead of only looking at the things they are doing wrong, I have made every attempt to see them as Christ does: as people.

They may not be the most intelligent people, and they may be deceived or corrupt, but the vast majority of them are trying their best to do what they think is right. That is where they and I are the same. It's become much easier for me to start loving them since I started looking at them as people instead of embodiments of ideas.

[Peanut]

Nate, if there is one thing I've learned recently is that changing yourself is the only thing you can really have control over. So, I would like to suggest that you take time and just actively seek God and relent and let him shape you. Don't care about what others say that should be, your not them and they aren't you so they have no right to determine exactly how you will turn out. In time I think you will find that you can come to a reconciliation with these other people in a more surprising way then you would expect and if not, that you will be at peace about the entire situation. I'll be praying.

[ChristianKitsune]

Pretty much every advice that I was going to say has been said, which is probably a God thing since more than one person here was thinking it...

Nate you are not alone here, there are many things that fellow Christians do, and even things that I unthinkingly do and look back on that make me cringe.

Like Raddie said, we are all very much human, and we will fail. This is why we need Christ.

For we do not follow each other into God's presence, we follow God. We play by HIS rules, and not our own...if that makes any sense... :/

If anything pray that God will soften your heart, as Followers of Christ (I too, prefer this "label" because we can say we are Christians all we want, but unless Christ is leading us, then we aren't really living it) we do need to humble ourselves and love others even when it's hard to do so.

There's this guy I met last year, and he's very philosophical, very well-read, but he's doing things that I can't agree with and he calls himself a Christian at the same time... many times during our small group sessions, his words cause our group to get off-topic and we end up debating about what is good...and true...and blah blah blah...

but we forget to LOVE each other, and it turns into a battle of who is right and who is wrong...

It's very hard to love this person, but I made it my prayer that God would soften my heart for this guy, that i would love him like a brother, despite who he is...

That might sound very high and mighty of me, I am no better than that guy, but when you can not do something on your own, go to God...trust in Him, and want to change.

After all, we're all going to be living together for eternity, might as well get used to us.

[ShiroiHikari]

A lot of people, both Christians and non-Christians, get really hung up on political opinions, so much so that it can be damaging to relationships (hence why we keep it off the boards! XD). But people are made up of more than just their political and theological opinions, and if you can get past that aspect, it can be possible to accept those who disagree with you, even if you have to avoid certain topics to keep things peaceful.

This. I have been learning that you have to separate people from their politics/religion sometimes. That is, don't sit there and just dismiss someone as a crazy person just because their opinions are so different from your own. I disagree with a LOT of people on a LOT of things, but I've been trying to just let it be, because you know what? If I didn't, I wouldn't be able to love anyone, ever. (I hope no one takes that the wrong way. I am NOT perfect by any means.)

A lot of people these days have sort of made politics their religion when really, politics and religion ought to be separate and one shouldn't always dictate the other. Am I the only one that thinks that? Also, moral issues have been made into political ones, which was either a really stupid or a really smart idea-- depends on how you look at it, I guess. Personally, I hate it.

I don't even know what I'm saying. I think what I'm saying is your political views do not and should not determine how "good" or "bad" a Christian you are.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I would be lying if I said I had no idea what you were going through. Actually, at times I wonder if God intended me to be for those who had been burned by the church and example of what Christians are SUPPOSED to be like. It's a scary prospect, and I don't really feel like I do a good job, but so much of my interactions with others on the subject of my Faith has been apologizing for the actions of others and trying to earnestly explain that is not the way things are supposed to be. (Most of my group of friends belong to the subset of society who are non-christians because they were raised in the church and had heinous acts commited against them in the name of Christ).

After graduation I went through a really long dark period that was basically climaxing last september when I went to a certain forum to try and reconnect with God, and ended up walking away in even worse shape because the Christians there were often as hateful if not more hateful than the atheists and the agnostics. Bad place to be, emotionally speaking.

One of the things I've learned is that the title Christian does not apply to you because you belong to an earthly church, nor because you fit into the connotation of the word in the modern context or the way it has come to mean thanks to the fine representatives at Faux News and their ilk. Being a Christian simply means that you, as you have said, Believe in and Trust God and Jesus. Even if you disavow the title itself, as long as those things hold true, it is the word best suited to fit that aspect of your life.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I know what it feels like. Just... Try to be what you think Christ would want you to be and worry about yourself. The only person whose faith you have any rule over is your own. Don't worry of the faiths of strangers. Their place with God is between them and God, and we have no way of knowing where they actually are.

[Alcuinus]

Ok... disclaimer: I have not gone through this... it is often times like these that I wish I had (like other discouraging and painful circumstances in my life), so that I could honestly relate (that, by the way, is one reason we can rejoice in our sufferings ).

Well, I think the best place to start (besides the fact that I too talk too much but only when much is to be said ) is that we have to find some solid ground on defining our terms.

One of the things I've learned is that the title Christian does not apply to you because you belong to an earthly church, nor because you fit into the connotation of the word in the modern context or the way it has come to mean thanks to the fine representatives at Faux News and their ilk.

That, imo, is one of the most important things for us to recognize here. Being a Christian extends beyond the context of the people around us. Being a Christian has to be defined in a source that is not subjective and I think Etoh got it:

Being a Christian simply means that you, as you have said, Believe in and Trust God and Jesus. Even if you disavow the title itself, as long as those things hold true, it is the word best suited to fit that aspect of your life.

Faith in Christ is the definition of a Christian (follower of Christ). Unfortunately, with that, like all other labels (including Calvinist, which I sometimes refrain from using so I'm not confused for a Hyper Calvinist! >_<) comes certain presuppositions. That can't be avoided but what we can do is observe that when we are asked

"If you dislike what other Christians do, why do you call yourself one?"

We can answer that the object of our Faith is Christ, not other people who claim the title of Christian. We call ourselves Christians because of our beloved Savior.

Furthermore, you say that

... if I were to say "I am a Christian" I would be immediately derided by others...

Unfortunately, that is unavoidable. Christ Himself told us we would be derided, mocked, hated. If we are so because of the title we bear it is little different from being so because of the lives we live.

they hold beliefs I think are wrong, and likewise, I hold beliefs they think are wrong. We can't see eye-to-eye]
This is probably the most hopeful part of this whole circumstance. You think they are wrong. They think you are wrong. Who knows who is right? Thank the Lord we have a standard to answer these questions by (... yes ... that would be the Bible for those of you who were not paying attention). You see, the Bible tells us we are all imperfect. If we had a perfect theology, there would be no more need to study God's Word, but we don't! None of us! Of course we think we are right (or we wouldn't hold those beliefs), and in the core doctrines we may be reasonably sure that we are right, but even in these there are many Christians who are not right (particularly new Christians). But God who is rich in mercy and love not only saves us, but also sanctifies us! (grows us in holiness that is). And His Spirit teaches us daily through His Word! The short of it is you may not see eye-to-eye right now but if in truth God has saved you and the people labeled "Christians" around you, He will teach you and your theology will become more Christlike! If you do not see eye-to-eye now, you will as God grows both you and those around you. Now if that person is as you say, "a dead plant", there is reason to believe the plant was never alive to begin with. In that case there is hope that God will yet save that person. Otherwise, if the plant lives be assured that God will grow it. Be patient, and pray that God would grow both you and those other people.

We can't ever be reconciled, I think. That's part of the problem of why I can't love them.

All I can say to this is try my friend. Try very hard to see them as brothers who have yet a bit of growing to do (unless they obviously reject the core foundations of our Faith), and then pray for them but don't pray for them only. Pray that God would grow you too as each one of us can confidently say, we are yet ignorant of the whole revelation of God's Word. And, my friend, He will indeed.

You could say "Try praying for them"

Which I did.

and that's fine, but the problem is that they are also praying for me because they think I'm wrong. Which prayer would God listen to?

The short answer to this is that whoever He wills. If you are wrong, then them, and if they are wrong, then you. In any case, God will grow you both and you will eventually come to an understanding that is consistent with His Word.

Be at peace, my friend, and know that God will see you and other Christians through in this.

Lastly:

Yeah. I talk too much.

Yeah. I talk too much too.


PS this be one of the reasons why I don't call down anathemas on Arminians

[uc pseudonym]

We're not in exactly the same place, and you've been general enough that I can't really make assumptions (despite my mind's efforts to do so). Given my personality type, I find myself wanting to pin your thoughts down into one of the camps that you could easily be describing, given that I know some about your position.

That aside, even if we're not in the same place we're within eyesight. Hopefully if this thread doesn't help with anything else, it might show that you're far from alone, wherever you specifically fall.

The other day I was reading a site that I won't link, one of those sites so far off the spectrum that tons of fundamentalist sites condemn it. Pretty much the whole site was them talking about how everything is evil (for example, they say that all fiction is just lies). Plus, they have pages and pages of responses to all the verses that people would normally quote about not judging or thinking on good things. I felt a similar feeling to those you described, because they're so utterly certain they're right, so completely impossible to converse with. Looking online I found people who tried to talk to them and the site seems to resort to calling everyone "spiritual morons" if they bring up anything complex or disagree. Yet I can't just dismiss these people out of hand, either, so they stick with me for a long time.

Looking back, I'm not sure that example was terribly helpful. Hopefully commiseration doesn't make things worse. I have my own personal and theological ways of coping with these kinds of people, but I'm not sure it would help to talk about those. So I only have one thing.

I don't like to hate them. It's distasteful to me, and every time I even so much as approach the thought "Well one day when they are judged, they will see the error of their ways," I feel awful. I feel awful because, well, I feel (whether or not this is true is a matter of opinion) that they have the same thoughts about me. And that leads into another bit of a problem. I feel that they feel this way (which, again, is an opinion and not necessarily true), so I do not want to think like them because then I will become like them. But at the same time, I feel that if I purposely try to not think like that, I may become prideful, a matter of "Well at least I don't think like THEY do, so that makes me better than them," which is also wrong and again, makes me feel like I will become like them. Sort of a "damned if I do and damned if I don't" scenario.

I think there is one major difference: you are self-aware. You're correct in saying that you struggle with a lot of negative things, but it's important to remember that you do struggle. Most other people don't really think that they sin at all (maybe they would say they do, but they don't really think it in a practical sense). You're aware of your own pride and hatred and it's obvious that you are trying to overcome them. I think that makes all the difference.

Not that thinking this can't be another source of pride. It is for me. But in thinking that I immediately realize I'm being prideful. Realizing these infinite cycles of failure can sort of even out to a type of humility, I hope.

[MightiMidget]

Do not compare yourself to other people, but study the New Testament not for what you WANT to find, but for what is actually there. Study how Jesus wants us to act--not how other Christians want us to--study what Jesus tells us to do--not what other Christians do--what He calls us for. People mess it up, we have to return to the source. (not to say the writers of the Bible were perfect, but what they wrote was the Word of God--inspired.) We can't pick-and-choose what we believe from the Bible, it's like deciding to skip a step in a manual, it doesn't work.

I struggled (and still do) with whether or not I am a "good" Christian, and I'm not. However, after finally ignoring what other people tell me is right and wrong and going to the Bible specifically? and just...learning? not looking, learning...I have had more peace. More security.

People might not agree with you or your Biblical interpretations, but that doesn't matter. Read, pray. Pray that God will open your heart and soften your heart, take away your bitterness and anger toward people. It hurts to look inside, but we are not responsible for other peoples' (or Christians') stupidity, only our own. Fellow Christians might pull the "*hand on shoulder* May I pray for you?" condescending bit, but know that not all people who do that to you are being holier-than-thou. We're told to help each other, but to do it in love. A lot of people miss the love, and are just being condescending and infuriating. It is hard to decipher which is which sometimes though.

Something a friend of mine told me one time was that we're called to love other people, doesn't necessarily mean we have to like them. We also try to do too much on our own. God is the only one who can change us. People can't. We can't. God is the only one who can give us the love we need.

I have noticed how self-deprecating you are at times, and I want to bop you! That's not because I don't like you, but it's because I love you as a brother in Christ and don't like to see you hurt--whether by others or by yourself. Even if you don't agree with anyone on anything, that makes it harder to find common ground to build a friendship on, yes, but that still doesn't take away the common ground of being brothers and sisters in Christ and loving each other. Besides, what family does NOT have sibling rivalry at some point? No one is perfect.

Hopefully that was somewhat coherent, my apologies if it was not. Praying for you, Nate. =)

[Alcuinus]

@MightiMidget I know that post was @Nate.... but I can't help but find that very encouraging (and coherent), myself.

[mechana2015]

Originally posted by Etoh: One of the things I've learned is that the title Christian does not apply to you because you belong to an earthly church, nor because you fit into the connotation of the word in the modern context or the way it has come to mean thanks to the fine representatives at Faux News and their ilk.

That, imo, is one of the most important things for us to recognize here. Being a Christian extends beyond the context of the people around us. Being a Christian has to be defined in a source that is not subjective and I think Etoh got it:


Originally posted by Etoh: Being a Christian simply means that you, as you have said, Believe in and Trust God and Jesus. Even if you disavow the title itself, as long as those things hold true, it is the word best suited to fit that aspect of your life.
Faith in Christ is the definition of a Christian (follower of Christ). Unfortunately, with that, like all other labels (including Calvinist, which I sometimes refrain from using so I'm not confused for a Hyper Calvinist! >_<) comes certain presuppositions. That can't be avoided but what we can do is observe that when we are asked


Originally posted by Nate: "If you dislike what other Christians do, why do you call yourself one?"

We can answer that the object of our Faith is Christ, not other people who claim the title of Christian. We call ourselves Christians because of our beloved Savior.

I'm coming from... a similar location as Nate probably, so I have a question for both of you.

How do you respond when one wishes to disavow the title of Christian, but not the beliefs, due to personal and/or non-personal experiences that are so abhorrent that they taint the title itself.

In some cases the name of 'christian' is a reminder of lies, abuse and hate. What should a person who still believes in Jesus, the cross and the resurrection call themselves when 'christian is ingrained in their mind with poison?

Furthermore, you say that
Originally posted by Nate: ... if I were to say "I am a Christian" I would be immediately derided by others...

Unfortunately, that is unavoidable. Christ Himself told us we would be derided, mocked, hated. If we are so because of the title we bear it is little different from being so because of the lives we live.

I would disagree that being derided for association with a group of people guilty of something as heinous as inhibiting a rape investigation (not referring to the Catholic Church here actually) can be written off as 'persecution'. Being called to the public eye for crimes against our fellow man and derided for being associated with people that would do such things, is not the same as being derided for faith and belief systems.

Originally posted by Nate: We can't ever be reconciled, I think. That's part of the problem of why I can't love them.

All I can say to this is try my friend. Try very hard to see them as brothers who have yet a bit of growing to do (unless they obviously reject the core foundations of our Faith), and then pray for them but don't pray for them only. Pray that God would grow you too as each one of us can confidently say, we are yet ignorant of the whole revelation of God's Word. And, my friend, He will indeed.

This can be difficult, especially when you've had experiences like I have (I can't speak for Nate). Being written off by whole churches because you aren't good enough for them, or won't follow their schedule, or don't go to enough services or don't fit into one of their cliques, can be ultimately discouraging, and when other things arise to make the situation worse, and one is cut off from the 'mainstream church' without chance for dialogue, the end results are very disheartening. God can work in us, but on a human to human level, if one side is willing and the other is not, a reconciliation will be much harder to come by.

This isn't sibling rivalry so much as being forced out of the house by the siblings because you aren't like what they think the family should be like. And they aren't interested in having you back anytime soon.

[airichan623]

Wow...Nate, everyone, I think my faith was strengthened just by reading this.
I agree with all of you.

And on the note of not liking the connotation "Christian" has, I could be in the same boat as this. The name "Christian" isn't a Bible-instructed thing. In fact, the earliest church called themselves "Followers of the Way." In fact, I consider myself a "Christ-follower" or "Jesus-follower." Basically, dont let yourself be swayed by the actions of others that deride the name of our Lord. Be strong in the Lord, and know that a true Christian is one in word and in deed. As a long-time member of a Christian school, I also know the reactions some have to the name "Christian."

And the note of the "others" Nate mentioned, don't pray that they change or you change. Pray that God's will be done, and that you will be able to love them. Pray that, you will know right from wrong, and know the truth. "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." Amen?

I will most definetly be praying for you.

[airichan623]

Do not compare yourself to other people, but study the New Testament not for what you WANT to find, but for what is actually there. Study how Jesus wants us to act--not how other Christians want us to--study what Jesus tells us to do--not what other Christians do--what He calls us for. People mess it up, we have to return to the source. (not to say the writers of the Bible were perfect, but what they wrote was the Word of God--inspired.) We can't pick-and-choose what we believe from the Bible, it's like deciding to skip a step in a manual, it doesn't work.

I struggled (and still do) with whether or not I am a "good" Christian, and I'm not. However, after finally ignoring what other people tell me is right and wrong and going to the Bible specifically? and just...learning? not looking, learning...I have had more peace. More security.

People might not agree with you or your Biblical interpretations, but that doesn't matter. Read, pray. Pray that God will open your heart and soften your heart, take away your bitterness and anger toward people. It hurts to look inside, but we are not responsible for other peoples' (or Christians') stupidity, only our own. Fellow Christians might pull the "*hand on shoulder* May I pray for you?" condescending bit, but know that not all people who do that to you are being holier-than-thou. We're told to help each other, but to do it in love. A lot of people miss the love, and are just being condescending and infuriating. It is hard to decipher which is which sometimes though.

Something a friend of mine told me one time was that we're called to love other people, doesn't necessarily mean we have to like them. We also try to do too much on our own. God is the only one who can change us. People can't. We can't. God is the only one who can give us the love we need.

I have noticed how self-deprecating you are at times, and I want to bop you! That's not because I don't like you, but it's because I love you as a brother in Christ and don't like to see you hurt--whether by others or by yourself. Even if you don't agree with anyone on anything, that makes it harder to find common ground to build a friendship on, yes, but that still doesn't take away the common ground of being brothers and sisters in Christ and loving each other.

Hopefully that was somewhat coherent, my apologies if it was not. Praying for you, Nate. =)

amen.

I'm coming from... a similar location as Nate probably, so I have a question for both of you.

How do you respond when one wishes to disavow the title of Christian, but not the beliefs, due to personal and/or non-personal experiences that are so abhorrent that they taint the title itself.

In some cases the name of 'christian' is a reminder of lies, abuse and hate. What should a person who still believes in Jesus, the cross and the resurrection call themselves when 'christian is ingrained in their mind with poison?


I would disagree that being derided for association with a group of people guilty of something as heinous as inhibiting a rape investigation (not referring to the Catholic Church here actually) can be written off as 'persecution'. Being called to the public eye for crimes against our fellow man and derided for being associated with people that would do such things, is not the same as being derided for faith and belief systems.



This can be difficult, especially when you've had experiences like I have (I can't speak for Nate). Being written off by whole churches because you aren't good enough for them, or won't follow their schedule, or don't go to enough services or don't fit into one of their cliques, can be ultimately discouraging, and when other things arise to make the situation worse, and one is cut off from the 'mainstream church' without chance for dialogue, the end results are very disheartening. God can work in us, but on a human to human level, if one side is willing and the other is not, a reconciliation will be much harder to come by.

mech, dont forget: some of the greatest theologins in history were thrown out by the "mainstream church." whether necessary or otherwise, it caused both sides to reconsider their own beliefs.

note on my own comment: i hope none of us come off as holier-than-thou, especially me. we all have questions. we all need help. isnt that wat we come together for? to love on one another, and pray for each other. none of us may know anymore than any other, but we still can try.

Besides, what family does NOT have sibling rivalry at some point? No one is perfect.

This isn't sibling rivalry so much as being forced out of the house by the siblings because you aren't like what they think the family should be like. And they aren't interested in having you back anytime soon.

and yet, in the midst of the sibling rivalry, don't all of us "quarreling siblings" have the same loving Father over us? No sibling can do the Father's job.
---
anyway, hope that made sense. God be with you all.

[mechana2015]

and yet, in the midst of the sibling rivalry, don't all of us "quarreling siblings" have the same loving Father over us? No sibling can do the Father's job.
---
anyway, hope that made sense. God be with you all.

That part didn't. I've rarely been treated as a friend or an acquaintance, let alone a sibling by any Christians I've met in a church so I can't see this 'sibling rivalry' comparison. As far as I can tell 'christian brotherhood' only works when you fit the criteria set for it by all the Christians who preach it.

To be fair, I never had any siblings so maybe trying to own your life, claiming you aren't a member of the family because of your appearance and ostracizing you for not sharing their political and religious beliefs to the letter are par for the course here. Oh and believing and accepting every word coming out of the oldest sibling's mouth because they're supposedly Dad's favorite.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

[size=84]
How do you respond when one wishes to disavow the title of Christian, but not the beliefs, due to personal and/or non-personal experiences that are so abhorrent that they taint the title itself.

Well, to be honest, I don't introduce myself as a Christian unless asked in most cases. I just try... you know, I try to live it. If they see that I'm fairly kind and open minded first, maybe they'll be more receptive. The success I've had so far is that they take my religion seriously around me and respect what I have to say. I was even asked to perform the wedding for two friends, one of whom fairly well fits what you described. To say I was considerably honored is an understatement...

Even though I kind of feel like I'm a cruddy Christian, I think actions speak louder. Don't announce yourself as a Christian just... You know... Be one.

[J.R.]

That part didn't. I've rarely been treated as a friend or an acquaintance, let alone a sibling by any Christians I've met in a church so I can't see this 'sibling rivalry' comparison. As far as I can tell 'christian brotherhood' only works when you fit the criteria set for it by all the Christians who preach it.

To be fair, I never had any siblings so maybe trying to own your life, claiming you aren't a member of the family because of your appearance and ostracizing you for not sharing their political and religious beliefs to the letter are par for the course here. Oh and believing and accepting every word coming out of the oldest sibling's mouth because they're supposedly Dad's favorite.

If that's how it is at the church you go to, I'd be looking to find myself a new fellowship.

[ich1990]

One thing, Nate.

When talking with people you disagree with, try to keep the effects of cultural conditioning in mind; it might allow you to understand where they are coming from, so you can love them in spite of their beliefs. I have met very intelligent people, whom I respect and care for, who hold beliefs that I think are wrong and stupid. Mostly, they hold on to these because they were brought up that way and couldn't shake it off. I feel sorry for them that they are this way, and try to give them a bit of compassion because of it. Heck, I came from such a background myself, and had to work hard (and rely on help from a myriad of supporters) to gather enough courage, facts, and self-assurance to break from my old beliefs. Some people are not so lucky.

When I look at people I disagree with, then, I try not to look at them as people who are stupid because obviously they have chosen to be wrong. I look at them as people who have not been fortunate enough to meet the right people, hear the right arguments, or gather enough willpower to find the truth. Maybe it is a fault of their own, maybe it isn't. It is like poor people, you can't look at them and say "they are poor, so they must be lazy workers or addicted to drugs or something", because you don't know their individual circumstances.

I hope that by looking at them as such, you may be able to muster some compassion for plight, rather than hatred. Take it from someone who has been (eh, who am I kidding, I still am) one of those "homeless people", we need all of the help we can get.

EDIT: Also, for the record I self-identify as a Christian, although I always qualify it by saying that I would be branded as a heretic by pretty much any denomination. If they ask what denomination I am, my stock answer is: "I don't know, I made it up myself and haven't thought of a name yet. Any suggestions?"

[Nate]

This is all well and good, but unfortunately it doesn't touch on some other problems I'm having (which I will have to be as vague as possible with, again, to avoid debate).

I am aware that honestly, I'm pretty terrible at acting how I should in regards to moral imperatives from Christianity. I'm a pervert, I'm short-tempered, I hate myself, and I find it really easy to dislike others. I tend to be arrogant, lazy, and selfish. So yeah. I know I'm not really a good person (okay, yeah, no one is, I get that, but I'm not really a good person even comparatively is what I mean).

So, at the very least, I want to be able to help others. Regardless of what I'm like, I want to be able to at least do good. However, I do have the problems of being lazy and selfish. Anyway...a large problem I'm facing is, these Christians I oppose (for lack of a better term I guess) are doing...things that make it difficult for me to be able to help people. I know that I can't help everyone in the world who's suffering and in need, but I know that if it wasn't for these other Christians, I could help more than I'm helping now. It frustrates me that they are preventing me from doing as much as I can.

And while I know that this world isn't perfect, I know it will never be perfect, I don't think that's an excuse to make things worse, y'know? And that's what they're doing, as far as I can see...making things worse. I don't know if it's because they don't care, or what...but it frustrates me.

The shame I carry for the title "Christian" has nothing to do with Christ. And I know someone said "Oh well Jesus said you'll be hated and persecuted." Which is true! But here's the problem: I'm being hated for stuff I'm not doing. I'm being hated because other Christians are doing the exact opposite of what Jesus commanded us to do. If they were hating me simply because I believe in God, or simply because I was doing good, that'd be fine! I can live with that. But to be hated because other people are giving the wrong impression of what Jesus was like...that's different, because one, it's hurting our witnessing, and two, it's difficult to stop. Because the people doing these things are being hated not because of them being followers of Christ, but because they're...well, they're jerks, to put it bluntly. However they just see it as "I'm making the world angry so therefore I'm doing it right!" which is faulty logic; if I yell at someone every time they try to make a swing in a golf game and mess them up, and they get mad, and I'm a Christian, I can't say "Well they only hate me because I'm Christian, so I'm not going to stop!" No, they hate me because I'm being a jerk and screwing up their golf game. The Christianity thing has nothing to do with it. It's the same kind of logic as "This rock keeps tigers away! I don't see any tigers here, so obviously it's working!"

I realize that comes off as confrontational and accusatory. I know this. But I can't see it any other way. And since they are abusing the name of Christ, that's I guess what ticks me off. I mean look at the Bible. The guys Jesus got mad at, the guys He chewed out, they weren't the adulterer or the tax collector. They were the religious people of His day. The guys who said "We know God better than anyone else and we always follow God's rules and so we're the best and everyone else sucks!" They were the ones who had it all wrong! They were the ones Jesus constantly had to lecture to and get mad at! I feel it's the same thing today. It frustrates me because I'm not Jesus. I'll never be anything like Jesus. I can't lecture them like He did, and I know that even when Jesus Himself lectured them, they still didn't even listen. It sucks because I feel that they're causing me undue harm, they're screwing up the world, and I can't stop them because if they won't even listen to Jesus Christ, what the hell chance do I have?

I know I've gotten horribly close to being specific here, and it can cause a debate. I'm really, really sorry if it becomes that. I'm trying hard not to turn this thread into "me vs. them" because I know it can go that way if I push it. Again, I'm just...really, really frustrated. I'm powerless. I know I can't do much of anything, and I feel that well...I'm just a drop in an ocean, and even if there are a few people who feel like I do...we're still just a puddle.

[MightiMidget]

It is right to be infuriated by that, but the thing to know is that you are not responsible for their actions. You cause yourself more grief, and more hurt and carry more of a burden than you are responsible for--more than you can handle--by trying to fix everything. God will open the doors, and direct us to the doors that He wants us to open and go through. Not to say we sit on the couch waiting for opportunity, but to have faith that God will show us what we need to do, make an opening.

Also, using my poor gift of analogies (that I avoid like the plague usually). You put a drop of bleach in a container full of water, and it still kills the algae. A drop can do a lot. /poor analogy attempt. You want to do good, okay, then look for all the opportunities? Sometimes "doing good" does not fall under the same definition we wish it would. It's a matter of being open to it.

[Sheenar]

Some people, unfortunately, paint a very distorted and disfigured portrait of Jesus for others to see --they get a skewed image of what Jesus Christ is like. Sometimes it seems these people get the most press.

But, as has been said, you can still help people even with those people acting like they do. All that is between them and God.

Ask God how you can help paint a beautiful and true portrait of Christ for others to see. Since you desire to help, He will open avenues for you to do ministry. Be prepared to look for them. Even in the small, mundane things of life (going to the store, helping an old lady with her groceries, sitting and talking with someone who is lonely, etc.) can have an enormous impact on people.

One of the things that my friends Lisa and Kacy did for me in 6th grade (before I came to Christ) was bring an Easter basket for me to school and give it to me in class. I didn't have many friends, wasn't popular, etc. It made my day--I was beaming. That was one of the seeds planted in my life that God used to lead me to Him down the road. Something as simple and small as that.

Don't let small and petty people get in your way or obscure your vision. Serve where you are. God knows your heart. He will make a way.

As for disillusionment with Christianity (the "religion") --I feel ya. I'm in a department full of people who say they are Christians, go to church on Sundays, and hit the bars on Thursdays. But that's my mission field.
A great book on the topic is Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller. He's definitely honest about the issue and doesn't sugarcoat it. It's a great read.

[mechana2015]

If that's how it is at the church you go to, I'd be looking to find myself a new fellowship.

That's over multiple churches over 7 years. I have been.

[Mithrandir]

Given my position on CAA, I seriously considered not posting this. But I don't think it's coincidental that this has been on my mind a great deal lately, so I I feel I have to post it. I'll try to keep it as concise as possible...

I'm kind of astounded that the word "grace" only appears once in this thread. I'm working on a sermon (yeah you read that right; it's a long story) for tomorrow about grace, and it seems like there's a great deal of cross-over here.

The one thing we all have in common - regardless of what we believe or how we respond to God's touch on our lives - is this: we are all equally undeserving of what God has done for us.

It is hard to love people who do not love us. I've heard love defined as putting the good of others before the good of ourselves. In this way, grace is the ultimate expression of love: Unmerited favor with no expectation of anything in return. More and more I'm coming to believe that grace is God's theme; its variations penetrate and pulsate through all areas of true Christianity.

From our own experiences, we can intuit that trying to change others with words is impossible; if they see something in us that they want, then there's a chance they'll change.

It is somewhat less intuitive that trying to change ourselves is often completely overwhelming. We see all the junk that we hate, and we try to change everything at once. This rarely, if ever, works.

Rather than focus on what we don't like in either others or ourselves, if we run through the ways God has given us grace and really focus on how unbelievably amazing it is that we are forgiven - if we truly meditate on the freedom Christ has given us despite how completely undeserving we all are - it is then that we can begin to grasp what love really is, and how we can attain it. Both for ourselves, and for others.