The aniblog discussion club: erudite thought within

The real heart of CAA; discuss specific series, issues, and things related to anime here.

The aniblog discussion club: erudite thought within

Postby blkmage » Tue May 04, 2010 9:58 pm

Sup guys.

Recently, I posted a short-lived thread about anime blogs and mentioned blogs that like to do analysis. Here, we'll be taking what we learned there to the next step.

Here's what'll happen. I'll post a blog post and any contextual information that I think will be helpful. And then we'll discuss it. Do you agree? Disagree? Have examples? Have anecdotes? Criticisms? Comments? Counterexamples? And when we discussion dies down, I'll repeat the process by posting another blog post. Clearly, the topic will be related to anime. Obviously, since I plan ahead, I have a few posts that I'd like to bring up, ready to go in the pipeline, but if you have suggestions, feel free to PM me or something and I'll have a look.

There are a few goals here. The first is to expose you to the lovely community of people who like anime that has sprung up around the internet. The second is to get you to think about anime in a way that you probably haven't thought of it before. The third is to get you to take a look at some works that might have initially been outside your tastes and expand the range of what you'd consider watching or reading. The fourth is to generate discussion. There are a lot of you whose opinions I'm interested in hearing, but there hasn't really been an excuse to draw those out. This is that excuse.

I've found reading these things really interesting and I hope you will too. So let's begin.

---

First up, we have Why I Don’t Watch Shounen:

I tend to pick up scattered tidbits of the latest news on One Piece when my friends talk about a recent episode or manga chapter. After dropping it towards the end of the Chopper arc, I’ve been met with some people saying I was better off, and others who have told me that the story only gets better from then on. I’ll admit that I’d occasionally watch an episode or two out of boredom, albeit begrudgingly. But for the most part, I really lack the impetus to keep up with any of the big three (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece).

[Also, let's not get into semantics. I realize that the word "shounen" is actually meant to denote the target demographic of the show and not the genre itself. For the sake of simplicity, I'm using it to define any prominent ongoing action series whose primary target is teenage males.]

If you’re a fan of any of the big three, you’ll be glad to know that I don’t choose not to watch them because of anything I find stylistically fault-worthy with their respective premises. If anything, I think that the original creators should be commended for being able to capitalize on ideas that are mostly mainstays of Eastern culture by bringing them to the West. And I’m sure that most of you watched one of the big three at one point or another, with some of you using it as a gateway to other Anime, and know enough about it for me not to waste time discussing their plot points. My qualm is with the technical aspect that plagues the shounen formula.

The main thing that really prevents me from plowing through any given 100+ episode series is that I feel as though it wouldn’t have a lasting impression on me. Conclusiveness is a crucial element for me. It lets me know that the creator had a general message to convey from the outset, which in turn allows we the viewers to recall certain motifs and themes that let us probe into the creative left hemisphere of their brain. Without this, it just feels like the original mangaka are just plucking out whatever whim floats in front of their faces to wring the fanbase.

Not only that, but the characters are bastardized as nothing more than cheap plot mechanisms, employed whenever the writer feels they have to insert an unnecessary twist to drag out the storyline. I know absolutely nothing about the Bleach franchise, but Tite Kubo seems to have stoked enough ire in Bleach fans that it’s become almost a weekly mantra to vilify his name in digital effigy. I’ve heard rumors about characters getting ridiculous power-ups, or entire sub-casts being resurrected as if nothing happened. Do you really have to devalue the importance of a character’s life to make your story viable?

Compare them to regular shows that are released by the season. These creators package their ideas into simple 12 to 24 episode vignettes. Time and timing are always major factors for them, not only because they have deadlines to meet but also because they need to exercise precision when choosing which scene fits into which episode to make it an optimally effective story. Whether it’s a financial and artistic failure or not is a moot point; it’s a genuine work of love.

Here’s an extreme comparison: Imagine we were all granted immortality. While I’m sure some of us would still be brooding the existential crisis, a hefty majority would stop worrying about the meaning of life altogether. If time and space were to dilate, human beings would get lazy, and we’d most likely convert to a life of hedonism. It’s that fear of death that, I believe, keeps us moving. Without a proper ending, our lives would lack meaning.

I started this as a way to voice why I choose not to watch shounen, but I seem to have gone off on a preachy tangent. I really don’t mean to offend any of the fans, although I don’t think that anything I said was particularly scathing.

On a somewhat related note, I must say that while I dropped Naruto early on, I still believe that the Haku and Zabuza subplot was one of the most touching moments in recent Anime history. An old floormate of mine from last year said that he was a casual fan of Anime, so of course he watched Naruto. I asked him what his favorite part was, and he was really enthusiastic about saying how he had a crush on Haku. Of course he had to preface it with “No homo.”
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Postby MasterDias » Tue May 04, 2010 10:39 pm

Well, a lot of that is really a matter of taste, but I do want to comment on this:

Compare them to regular shows that are released by the season. These creators package their ideas into simple 12 to 24 episode vignettes. Time and timing are always major factors for them, not only because they have deadlines to meet but also because they need to exercise precision when choosing which scene fits into which episode to make it an optimally effective story. Whether it’s a financial and artistic failure or not is a moot point; it’s a genuine work of love.

That's...rather exaggerated.
I'm pretty sure the production companies are generally about making money. Otherwise, we would a get a bunch of sequels to shows no one bought. But besides that, the vast majority of these shows are also based on manga/light novels/VN/etc., and these can have their own set of problems. I can name a number of "short" shows that either had a non-existent ending or an anti-climatic one, due to catching up with an ongoing manga/light novel.

I mean, I'm sure the directors/creators and whoever do usually like what they do...but let's be realistic here. And you can't really say that the creator of short show A loves his series more than the creator for long show B.
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Postby blkmage » Wed May 05, 2010 6:08 am

So when adapting a long work, would you rather see something like Naruto or Bleach, where it's aired without stopping and filler is used as a stopgap or would you rather see it parceled out into 12 or 24 episode seasons? I think that's the main distinction here. While shows that are chopped up may be adapted poorly some of the time, long shows that are filler-filled will pretty much always run into the problem of dragging or the fact that people will realize that nothing of consequence is actually happening.

I mean, for the long, filler-ier series, the audience is typically younger, so it's probably not that big of a deal. But I pretty much can't stand that anymore, so I don't watch those anymore. I'm much more receptive to going for a bit and stopping for a breather.
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Postby Atria35 » Wed May 05, 2010 8:30 am

Hmmm. I find it interesting that he specifies this as the reasons he doesn't watch shounen- but even though those are the big three, I thought that there were many other, less popular shounen series out there that were packaged in 24-26 episodes. I really thought that Naruto, One Piece and Bleach weren't the norm.
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Postby MasterDias » Wed May 05, 2010 10:19 am

Yeah, don't get me wrong. There are definitely problems with the long series, and I would actually want them to be split up into shorter seasons as well. Unfortunately, given that it's about money and popularity, that's not realistic in most cases.

What bothers me most is not filler though. It's when the pacing on the canon material slows down to a crawl. That's what can kill it for me really.
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Postby blkmage » Wed May 05, 2010 6:27 pm

Well the thing is, regardless of what you think of them, Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece are what we measure modern shounen battle manga against. They're by far (and by orders of magnitude) the most ubiquitous shounen series around. What are the other popular titles that are running in, say, WSJ? How many of them have anime adaptations?
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Postby blkmage » Thu May 06, 2010 1:01 pm

So, directing the scope of the current conversation a bit, it was actually the following post that lead me to the one above. I chose the one above to start off with because it was a bit more general, but I think this one is more interesting because it examines a specific property of the Big Three.

Here's Real and Illusory Time in Naruto and Shounen Manga:
I am not a fan of Naruto. I was getting back into anime just as Naruto was getting popular, but for some reason I was never inspired to make that initial move and start reading. And past a certain point there was just so much material, and I’d heard so much about it from other people, that I was loath to dig into the enormous beast in any way. This is more or less the reason why I also haven’t read Bleach or One Piece.

Saturnity of Boku no Bibletoads of the Rebellion seems to share my outlook: The size and seeming endlessness of popular shounen series not only stops people from getting into them, but in actual fact erodes what worth they might have possessed. An ending is essential, he concludes, because when faced with an endless lifespan, life becomes meaningless.

But is the problem simply that these series don’t end? I can think of plenty of titles that trump such an assessment. One of them is Hourou Musuko, an ongoing series by the author of Aoi Hana. Another one is Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou by Ashinano Hitoshi. I’m planning to write about both of these in the near future, so I won’t dwell on them right now. But they happen to be favorites of mine, so I hope the point stands: A manga can continue on with no end in sight and remain sublimely engaging.

What makes series like Naruto so bothersome isn’t endlessness or sheer length in and of itself, but (and I’m trying to word this very carefully) endlessness with the illusion of time. Characters continually adventure, continually face opponents stronger than the previous ones, and they always get stronger to match. But to what end? We see an increasing scale of power, but it occurs in a perpetually discarded now: NOW is the ultimate fight, NOW is the evil badass to end all evil badasses… until the next one comes.

As a concluding comment, I’d like to point to a moment in Naruto that even I paid attention to: The advent of Naruto Shippuden. Suddenly, the punk kid in the orange jumpsuit became an adult, along with all his friends and enemies. This was definitely a revitalization of the franchise, and I believe it’s because “real” time has finally been acknowledged in a way that it hasn’t ever been before, or since.
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Postby Yamamaya » Thu May 06, 2010 1:19 pm

Part of this is just due to personal preference.

Sometimes I enjoy series that have no ending in sight such as One Piece and Bleach(although Bleach manga could end soon if Kubo has the guts which of course he doesn't). It allows the series's fanbase to grow and flourish since new material is constantly being released. Albeit it does make it hard for new fans to start reading/watching it.
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Postby Mr. Hat'n'Clogs » Thu May 06, 2010 5:24 pm

Atria35 (post: 1392296) wrote:Hmmm. I find it interesting that he specifies this as the reasons he doesn't watch shounen- but even though those are the big three, I thought that there were many other, less popular shounen series out there that were packaged in 24-26 episodes. I really thought that Naruto, One Piece and Bleach weren't the norm.


This was one of my problems with the article, there are plenty of shounen that are normal length and work very well. FMA is the big example, but I'm sure there are many others.
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Postby blkmage » Thu May 06, 2010 5:49 pm

Mr. Hat'n'Clogs (post: 1392604) wrote:This was one of my problems with the article, there are plenty of shounen that are normal length and work very well. FMA is the big example, but I'm sure there are many others.

Are there though? I know that FMA is the main counterexample, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head. I mean, I guess Soul Eater was alright, but that manga's still ongoing and not ending anytime soon either. And I think the plot and pacing argument holds for manga as well.
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Postby Mr. Hat'n'Clogs » Thu May 06, 2010 5:58 pm

blkmage (post: 1392615) wrote:Are there though? I know that FMA is the main counterexample, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head. I mean, I guess Soul Eater was alright, but that manga's still ongoing and not ending anytime soon either. And I think the plot and pacing argument holds for manga as well.

Well, besides Soul Eater and FMA, there's also Death Note, which while I dislike it I know a lot of people immensely enjoy it. Gurren Lagann, while not being based off of any manga in particular, was created simply to be like a shonen manga, unless Gainax is a bunch of liars. Tegami Bachi, which, if it weren't picked up too early as an anime, could be another example, though even it is getting a second season.
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Postby MightiMidget » Thu May 06, 2010 6:07 pm

Personally I've only been exposed to Bleach, and I have not read the manga, just watched the anime. The loss of time does eradicate the feel of it being realistic and meaningful, but so do the battles in themselves. Ichigo can't three episodes without getting run through then healed, and poof he's fine. The huge number of other inconsistencies makes the loss of time seem natural. The inconsistencies can make things more fun though, it's ridiculous, yes, but...so? The characters make it fun, and despite the huge number of filler (which I can skip if I want to) I'd be sad to see the characters end. The from pointless plot to pointless plot to gasp! quality?! is one way it could seem more real. The characters don't seem to happy with their filler episodes of stupidity either.
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Postby MasterDias » Thu May 06, 2010 6:13 pm

Kekkaishi was 52 episodes and worked very well, since they managed to neatly adapt the first major arc to a cutoff point.

I will point out that the so-called Big Three are a bit unusual actually in that most series in this genre don't last quite that long. You can find plenty of series that passed 100, but I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find very many that passed 200 or 300 episodes. One Piece in particular is an absolute juggernaut at this point.

Also, series like FMA/Soul Eater/Tegami Bachi are monthly series in manga form, so it would be technically impossible for them to be long continuous series like Naruto or One Piece.
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Postby Atria35 » Thu May 06, 2010 6:35 pm

MasterDias (post: 1392623) wrote:Also, series like FMA/Soul Eater/Tegami Bachi are monthly series in manga form, so it would be technically impossible for them to be long continuous series like Naruto or One Piece.


Naruto annd Bleach may come out on a weekly basis, but that still hasn't prevented a massive amount of filler from being aired. So if they wanted to make FMA/Soul Eater/Tegami Bachi continuous series, they could- they'd just turn out a massive amount of filler to do it.

....I just heard the screams of a thousand fans as I typed that :lol:

Yamamaya (post: 1392522) wrote:Part of this is just due to personal preference.

Sometimes I enjoy series that have no ending in sight such as One Piece and Bleach(although Bleach manga could end soon if Kubo has the guts which of course he doesn't). It allows the series's fanbase to grow and flourish since new material is constantly being released. Albeit it does make it hard for new fans to start reading/watching it.


Um, contradiction much?

I'm a big believer that, if they wanted to grow a fanbase even larger or keep the older fans interested, they'd cut down on the material being released (filler), and make a (singular, perhaps 13 episodes long or whatever fit the new material best) quality season every year. That would still give fans new material, while giving the magakas more breathing room to make quality work per issue instead of worrying about keeping up with what's airing. And that way, new fans could be introduced to the original storyline via reruns, and the material they had to get through to catch up would be far less intimidating.

Do I think this will happen? Erm, probably not. I mean, it sort-of did with FMA, but that's the exception, not the rule. BUt that is how I would like to see things done.
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Postby ich1990 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:08 pm

It occurs to me that the author's main problem with the big three isn't so much the genre, style, or disposable cast, so much as it is a problem with bad writing. Massive casts and constant battles and powerups don't have to be derogatory elements so long as they are done well.

You mentioned the lack of counter-examples. As a recent JoJo convert I nominate Steel Ball Run (and I am sure Fish will back me up on this). It is manga, not anime, but the principle is the same. It has constant fights, but each is unique and flavorful. It has reams of disposable characters, yet each one is memorable and at least somewhat developed. It has repeated power ups (and a few power downs, which I guess doesn't fit with the genre), but they generally unlock new tactical options rather than raw power.

I conclude, then, that the author's problem is not with shounen in general, but with the big three and the bad writing and execution that comes with them (Although I should note that I only have personal experience with Bleach). Extending his dislike of those three into a blanket genre statement isn't really fair.

I do agree, however, that a manga/anime story should have something to aim for. I don't think it has to be ending so much as a checkpoint. Something for the characters to be driving towards. This is why I haven't often been a fan of slice-of-life series, but multi-arc stories with mini "endings" placed throughout (I.E. 20th Century Boys) are perfectly fine.
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Postby Yamamaya » Thu May 06, 2010 8:53 pm

Atria35 (post: 1392628) wrote:Um, contradiction much?

I'm a big believer that, if they wanted to grow a fanbase even larger or keep the older fans interested, they'd cut down on the material being released (filler), and make a (singular, perhaps 13 episodes long or whatever fit the new material best) quality season every year. That would still give fans new material, while giving the magakas more breathing room to make quality work per issue instead of worrying about keeping up with what's airing. And that way, new fans could be introduced to the original storyline via reruns, and the material they had to get through to catch up would be far less intimidating.

Do I think this will happen? Erm, probably not. I mean, it sort-of did with FMA, but that's the exception, not the rule. BUt that is how I would like to see things done.


Filler is annoying of course. I'd rather they just not make them at all, but that's not gonna happen considering that the Big Three love their moneys.

I was more referring to the fact that the big three are weekly releases in the manga magazines hence there's not a month long wait in between chapters. Also there's plenty of canon material in each of the Big three animes to keep fans satisfied.
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Postby mechana2015 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:57 pm

Yamamaya (post: 1392664) wrote:Filler is annoying of course. I'd rather they just not make them at all, but that's not gonna happen considering that the Big Three love their moneys.

I was more referring to the fact that the big three are weekly releases in the manga magazines hence there's not a month long wait in between chapters. Also there's plenty of canon material in each of the Big three animes to keep fans satisfied.


What you said still makes no sense.

Re: OP Blog Post.

I find it funny that the blogger in question is lumping these three series together. Yes Bleach and Naruto might be a little similar (but really...they aren't), but One Piece... well there's a reason I'm still reading the manga and willing to watch the anime. Because it's not like the other two series. Things from one piece have real staying power, even a hundred chapters later. Unlike Bleach... dead is dead and people really do die, and it affects the characters.

I find his argument to be more along the lines of 'I watched Bleach for a while, and these two are popular at the same time therefore I don't like Shonen'. This argument is unfortunately invalid since (it's clear by his own statements) that he's never seen them as different shows that could handle matters differently. For example, the time it takes for a single one on one fight in Bleach, a lot more can happen in One Piece. None of these series (or any shonen series) are paced exactly the same, or have the same depth of plot.

TLDR - I think he's railing against the stereotype, rather than the reality of the series he's trying to talk about, especially by parsing shonen down to the 'big three'.

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Postby MasterDias » Thu May 06, 2010 10:28 pm

Ah, and I was waiting for someone to come defend One Piece.

Unlike Bleach... dead is dead and people really do die, and it affects the characters.

I take a small amount of issue with this. Until the recent arc, no one ever died except in flashbacks. In fact, off the top of my head, I can think of at least two blatant examples of characters surviving/escaping impossible injuries earlier in the series. But even with the recent arc, I don't necessarily have a lot of reasons to believe Oda is going to suddenly start permanently offing that many characters from now on. And it's not like Naruto hasn't permanently killed characters either.

But, regardless, I don't actually disagree with your main points. Bleach began to feel rather drawn out and directionless to me awhile ago, while I'm still intently following One Piece on a weekly basis. So, there is certainly a deserved reason for why One Piece is as popular as it is.
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Postby mechana2015 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:42 am

MasterDias (post: 1392682) wrote:Ah, and I was waiting for someone to come defend One Piece.


I take a small amount of issue with this. Until the recent arc, no one ever died except in flashbacks. In fact, off the top of my head, I can think of at least two blatant examples of characters surviving/escaping impossible injuries earlier in the series. But even with the recent arc, I don't necessarily have a lot of reasons to believe Oda is going to suddenly start permanently offing that many characters from now on. And it's not like Naruto hasn't permanently killed characters either.

But, regardless, I don't actually disagree with your main points. Bleach began to feel rather drawn out and directionless to me awhile ago, while I'm still intently following One Piece on a weekly basis. So, there is certainly a deserved reason for why One Piece is as popular as it is.


I only mentioned Bleach in that sentence for a reason. I haven't seen Naruto, so I'm not going to make a judgement based on it, other than the story being different because, for the most part it is, and didn't engage me enough to keep going. That's personal preference though, and I did actually try to get into it.

[SPOILER]
Regarding One Piece vs. Bleach Deaths, Ichigo's mom dies offscreen in a flashback, and... Ishida's grandfather is shown dead... and it's implied that it was bad. And the one guy that looks like Ichigo with black hair died. Most of these have little to no ongoing plot significance or impact on character development.

One Piece has Nami's 'mom' getting shot in the head, onscreen if I remember right. In the Crocodile arc multiple people outright die... horribly, onscreen being robbed of even heroism. Now... they still have protagonist armor on the actual heroes, but they really make almost every death hit you in the series. I was genuinely upset any time people of any importance died, and it's generally a really big deal. You also get the impression that it matters a LOT when people die, on either side.

In addition with a quick check back (at least on the manga - sorry)... someone is graphically shot in the head. Page 32. Chapter one. And someone gets offed rather violently with an axe in chapter 4, though both of these people are nameless it sets a very different tone from Bleach.

The only scene from Bleach in the whole series that had this sort of impact was the Hollow that was a murderer before and was chasing down the ghost kid. The series didn't keep up this level of intensity and can't be compared to One Piece, where Buggy's introduction is him shooting one of his crew with a cannon, just to establish what he's like. Oda may not kill mains off until later... (that seems to be the domain of the Seinen genre) but they sure do rack up a significant, visual, body-count as the series progresses.[/SPOILER]
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Postby ich1990 » Fri May 07, 2010 5:12 am

mechana2015 (post: 1392679) wrote:Oh... and Ich?
Don't compare One Piece and Bleach.
They are nothing alike.


Fair enough. Having not seen or read any amount of One Piece I submit to your superior knowledge and stand corrected.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Fri May 07, 2010 1:00 pm

I think that the format of serial manga hurts them overall. Someone creating a graphic novel has the freedom to shape their ideas as a whole, making necessary alterations in order to create a complete work that expresses their ideas. But with a weekly magazine you can't take back anything you've done. That doesn't have to be a problem with good writing (One Piece clearly has careful planning), but I think it's obvious that a lot of series didn't have things thought through.

Am I the only one who finds Bakuman to be sort of depressing? With constant opinion polls prompting story changes to try to gain popular approval, I don't think there's any way the format won't draw everything toward the lowest common denominator. It makes me worried that we're not going to see much improvement in mainstream series.

Epics are one of my favorite forms of storytelling. Unfortunately, the only one of the big three that I feel is really telling an epic story is One Piece (I just wish that it had less padding). Naruto has made a huge mess of any planning it once had and Bleach seems to have been haphazard writing that only seemed plotted from a certain angle. So they lack the direction and structure that makes epics work instead of being collections of stories without meaningful change.

But let me expand the discussion a little bit: this is the same reason I don't read/watch much shojo.

All too often it offers the illusion of relationships when in fact it's just the usual tropes that cycle until the series starts to end. Sure, there will be a kiss, or blushing, or heartbeats overwhelming the page, but the characters rarely evolve. Meanwhile, where shonen adds one fight scene after another, shojo adds another character or another event gimmick (festivals, school fairs, etc).
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Postby TheSubtleDoctor » Fri May 07, 2010 2:03 pm

mechana2015 (post: 1392679) wrote:Things from one piece have real staying power
This
uc pseudonym (post: 1392751) wrote:All too often [shojo] offers the illusion of relationships when in fact it's just the usual tropes that cycle until the series starts to end.
And this.
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Postby blkmage » Fri May 07, 2010 3:10 pm

uc pseudonym (post: 1392751) wrote:I think that the format of serial manga hurts them overall. Someone creating a graphic novel has the freedom to shape their ideas as a whole, making necessary alterations in order to create a complete work that expresses their ideas. But with a weekly magazine you can't take back anything you've done. That doesn't have to be a problem with good writing (One Piece clearly has careful planning), but I think it's obvious that a lot of series didn't have things thought through.

Am I the only one who finds Bakuman to be sort of depressing? With constant opinion polls prompting story changes to try to gain popular approval, I don't think there's any way the format won't draw everything toward the lowest common denominator. It makes me worried that we're not going to see much improvement in mainstream series.

Epics are one of my favorite forms of storytelling. Unfortunately, the only one of the big three that I feel is really telling an epic story is One Piece (I just wish that it had less padding). Naruto has made a huge mess of any planning it once had and Bleach seems to have been haphazard writing that only seemed plotted from a certain angle. So they lack the direction and structure that makes epics work instead of being collections of stories without meaningful change.

But let me expand the discussion a little bit: this is the same reason I don't read/watch much shojo.

All too often it offers the illusion of relationships when in fact it's just the usual tropes that cycle until the series starts to end. Sure, there will be a kiss, or blushing, or heartbeats overwhelming the page, but the characters rarely evolve. Meanwhile, where shonen adds one fight scene after another, shojo adds another character or another event gimmick (festivals, school fairs, etc).

I think you're right about serialization. I've thought about how it would affect a plot and I came to the conclusion that that's the biggest distinction between a manga and so-called OEL manga.

I know on another forum, in the Bakuman thread, people started looking at Bleach and other series and tried to analyze the plot arcs to see if they could find out where surveys and stuff had a noticeable effect (e.g. Soul Society).

Just like it's possible for shounen, it's definitely possible for there to be a shoujo story that doesn't fall into the same traps. And like shounen, there aren't that many of them. The big difference, I think, is that shounen offers a lot more possibility for variation than shoujo, in terms of setting and premise and those sorts of things.
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Fri May 07, 2010 4:25 pm

I'm sad as heck that One Piece keeps getting lumped in with things such as Naruto and Bleach. It's really in a class of its own, and clearly Oda is going somewhere with the overall story.
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Postby Fish and Chips » Fri May 07, 2010 5:27 pm

Brings a tear to my eye not to the be the first person in a thread to mention Araki.
2-D Teleidoscope wrote:What makes series like Naruto so bothersome isn’t endlessness or sheer length in and of itself, but (and I’m trying to word this very carefully) endlessness with the illusion of time. Characters continually adventure, continually face opponents stronger than the previous ones, and they always get stronger to match. But to what end? We see an increasing scale of power, but it occurs in a perpetually discarded now: NOW is the ultimate fight, NOW is the evil badass to end all evil badasses… until the next one comes.
Now this is a complaint about the modern Shounen formula I can actually appreciate, which is probably why JoJo's Bizarre Adventure (hey Ich) is my favorite straight Shounen. Hirohiko Araki as a Mangaka has his problems to sort through, certainly, but for my money nobody handles the Shounen formula better. He even quipped briefly on the subject of Shounen structure - a structure that has remained mostly unchanged since the infancy of the genre/demographic - in a lecture he delivered in 2007.
Comic Press wrote:At the time, the "pyramid (tournament) formula" (A would fight & defeat B, then fight stronger character C, and on and on) was all the craze in Shonen Jump. But, Araki wondered, how strong could they get? Wouldn't the entire system collapse as soon as you reached the top, much like the economic bubble of the 80's in Japan? It wasn't like there could be an infinite number of levels of strength. So, he decided to create an RPG/board game-style system where characters traveled to different places to fight enemies, as seen in Jojo Part 3, where the protagonists traveled across Egypt while battling enemies.
Source

And this is really the only viable means I can see for handling a long-runner well (and not that different from how One Piece handles itself, actually). There are no power levels in JoJo, or none that mean anything, and every new villain is a legitimate threat on their own terms. Also, JoJo is generational - a new arc means a new protagonist as well as antagonist and general feel for the series, enough to accommodate the temporary drop in menace level after defeating an Aztec vampire demigod or a time traveling serial killer.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Sat May 08, 2010 12:37 pm

blkmage wrote:I know on another forum, in the Bakuman thread, people started looking at Bleach and other series and tried to analyze the plot arcs to see if they could find out where surveys and stuff had a noticeable effect (e.g. Soul Society).

Just like it's possible for shounen, it's definitely possible for there to be a shoujo story that doesn't fall into the same traps. And like shounen, there aren't that many of them. The big difference, I think, is that shounen offers a lot more possibility for variation than shoujo, in terms of setting and premise and those sorts of things.

I agree. There's also the issue of personal preference in terms of what you can easily put up with. For me, I can accept a lot of shonen's failings because I'll still enjoy the action or the plot. But not everyone likes those things, and there are aspects of shojo that I don't appreciate as much as its fans. We all want to see series that overcome such limitations, but meanwhile we tend toward genres that are easier for us.

Also, would it be possible for you to link me to that thread? I've definitely thought along similar lines, but I'm sure others have done it better.

Comic Press wrote:At the time, the "pyramid (tournament) formula" (A would fight & defeat B, then fight stronger character C, and on and on) was all the craze in Shonen Jump. But, Araki wondered, how strong could they get? Wouldn't the entire system collapse as soon as you reached the top, much like the economic bubble of the 80's in Japan? It wasn't like there could be an infinite number of levels of strength. So, he decided to create an RPG/board game-style system where characters traveled to different places to fight enemies, as seen in Jojo Part 3, where the protagonists traveled across Egypt while battling enemies.

This is a very legitimate point. I think that Dragonball is probably to blame for this, as it marked a turning point in general shonen. Before that, you generally had series like Fist of the North Star, where the main character basically kills off every opponent in the same fight they are introduced. For all of the pressure points and the like, there was a sense of realism in that the characters were vulnerable to threats from most enemies.

That changed with the later part of Dragonball, where the characters had cosmic levels of power that continually rose. A numeric measure of that power, even. Add that to the fact that the series was continued by editorial force several times and you get that sense of absurdity. On the bright side, Dragonball gave us characters that fail and lose a lot compared to older shonen, even when that means they die.

Fish and Chips wrote:And this is really the only viable means I can see for handling a long-runner well (and not that different from how One Piece handles itself, actually). There are no power levels in JoJo, or none that mean anything, and every new villain is a legitimate threat on their own terms.

JoJo is one good method, of course, but I think it's also possible to make this work if you plan your pyramid carefully so that the plot is reaching its final stages when the characters reach top levels of power. That actually brings me to another thing I've always found a bit off-putting about mainstream shonen: it tends to cheapen effort. I think part of why the ascending scales of power feel wrong is that they don't feel earned (Naruto especially).

In the real world, to become good at something it takes thousands of hours of effort. Ichigo learns a technique that's supposed to take decades to master in three days. The temptation with serial manga is to make every new level of power the bestest and most specialest thing ever, but I think that ultimately makes things tiring. By contrast, One Piece has the Shichibukai and others to give a world-wide perspective of current events.

Hunter x Hunter is a good example of general shonen that avoids this. It definitely has a lot of flaws, but if you're the type of reader that likes systems and structure, it's made for you. One of the things I enjoy about it is that even though the main characters will undergo intense training and power ups, there are other people in the world who have been doing exactly the same thing for decades longer than them.
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Postby blkmage » Sun May 09, 2010 7:06 pm

uc pseudonym (post: 1392917) wrote:Also, would it be possible for you to link me to that thread? I've definitely thought along similar lines, but I'm sure others have done it better.

It's not a particularly extensive analysis and it's buried in a 30+ page thread, but here it is.

---

Anyhow, I think we've reached a good place to stop the shounen talk for now and move on. By request, the next post will have to do with giant robots. In particular, we'll be looking at mecha as genre. By chance, like the first post, it was actually another post that lead me to this one, so I'll be springing it on you later on. But for now, we have Those Magnificent Men In Their Fighting Machines:
‘] they’re too healthy’), but later on, with the Newtype Weirdness and some of the wackier, larger Mobile Armours (like the Big Zam), the elastic becomes a bit more obvious. Everything else in the Gundam franchise has a subtly or not-so-subtly different relationship with the tree: G Gundam, for example, doesn’t bother running away from it – instead, it climbs to the top of the tree and strikes a martial-arts pose.

But there’s no need to restrict ourselves to Gundam here. Neon Genesis Evangelion grabs an axe and tries to cut the tree down. GaoGaiGar spits in Evangelion‘s eye, and works to grow the tree as big as possible. Full Metal Panic! grafts other plants onto the tree, and temporarily unties itself entirely for Fumoffu. Infinite Ryvius travels around the tree in circles while reciting passages from The Prince. Nanoha pretends to be attached to an entirely different tree, but if you look closely you’ll see it’s lying. The Super Dimension Fortress Macross climbs into the lower branches of the tree, and delivers an impromptu concert. Space Runaway Ideon fertilises the tree’s roots with the decaying bodies of dead children . . .

What I like about mecha is what is in the roots of the tree, and it’s also what MSG can’t – and doesn’t want to – escape from: turbo-charged and armour-plated physical heroism. Heroism has proved pretty resilient in the face of the apathy which is supposed to mark this age. And, as fun as it is to look at the old through the new, sometimes it’s just as much fun to look at the new through the old; Foucault on Homer is interesting – but what would Homer (if he existed) have thought of Foucault? (Victor Davis Hanson thinks the answer is ‘not much’ – I hope linking to The New Criterion doesn’t tangle me in US politics.) Now it’s true that nearly everything plays with the idea of heroism to a greater or lesser extent – but to do that you need the concept in the first place.

Mecha anime resurrects personal combat for a science fiction setting. Mecha are like lightsabers: they permit you to deposit THE FATE OF THE UNIVERSE, &C on the shoulders of two people fighting. Better still, mecha are humanoid, which means that, to the eye, very little separates a Gundam taking on a mechanical monster from the stereotypical man-with-a-sword fighting a dragon – a situation so stereotypical that it’s almost never played straight in normal fantasy writing.

I’ve mentioned how cyclopean Zakus are before, and there’s not as great a difference between (for example) Kira Yamato leaping into the sea to fight a monstrous ZnO, and Beowulf diving into a lake to kill Grendel’s mother as their chronological distance might suggest. (Although – going out on a limb here – I’d say the Beowulf poem is better than Gundam SEED.) Mixed in with the man-and-monster element is the fun of two men in armour fighting – something dealt with literally in Escaflowne and Code Geass, in which mecha pilots are knights. Perhaps there’s a little of this in Space Runaway Ideon too: I’m thinking of the eighth episode, when Gije launches an attack to prove his status as a samurai. (Pleasantly, it’s Ideon‘s aliens, rather than the human characters, who use the concept of ‘samurai’. That eighth episode really is an interesting study in several flavours of masculinity.)

Mecha anime is a niche for the world-saving action hero outside of your standard shounen action saga which, while not necessarily bad or stupid (see, for example, coburn’s examination of Soul Eater), is not my cup of tea. And the ‘real robot’ is an excuse for adding some speculative / science fiction into the wish-fulfilment mix – mecha as a fig leaf, yes, but a very cool fig leaf with a very big gun.
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Postby Atria35 » Sun May 09, 2010 7:46 pm

In a way, I always saw Mecha as a natural outgrowth of the weaponry upgrades that are now employed in most stories and in real life. In RL, people go for bigger, better, more powerful, deadlier- can you get any bigger, badder, or more deadly than a giant robot? When you can destroy a whole city within minutes, you've reached a pinnacle of power.

Of course, that can also be done by a nuclear power plant. But there's a sense of disassociation with a power plant- you can't be in it, pulling the levers and pushing the buttons, if you want to see the aftermath of the the chaos you've caused. With a giant robot, the person piloting it can see and control everything and be in the center of the destruction. Which is why I really agree with the statement that:

Mecha anime resurrects personal combat for a science fiction setting. Mecha are like lightsabers: they permit you to deposit THE FATE OF THE UNIVERSE, &C on the shoulders of two people fighting. Better still, mecha are humanoid, which means that, to the eye, very little separates a Gundam taking on a mechanical monster from the stereotypical man-with-a-sword fighting a dragon – a situation so stereotypical that it’s almost never played straight in normal fantasy writing.


I think there's a reason stories where the heroes take on the bad guys hand-to-hand or in close combat are so popular- it makes the fighting personal. Quite unlike the guys who are randomly shot on the streets, who don't see who shot them because the shooters were far away and it was dark (not that you always see who stabs you, but guns make it FAR easier to be anonymous). Now, what that says about people, I cannot say. Maybe it's something about honor in fighting in close combat, maybe it's something about settling fights on your own- that's something for a different board.

But Mecha and giant robots brings it back, but with massive powerups (always popular), and bigger guns (which is also poular).

Sorry if this seems somewhat convoluted- it's been a long day =.="
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Postby Hohenheim » Sun May 09, 2010 8:36 pm

Atria35 wrote:In a way, I always saw Mecha as a natural outgrowth of the weaponry upgrades that are now employed in most stories and in real life. In RL, people go for bigger, better, more powerful, deadlier- can you get any bigger, badder, or more deadly than a giant robot? When you can destroy a whole city within minutes, you've reached a pinnacle of power.

Of course, that can also be done by a nuclear power plant. But there's a sense of disassociation with a power plant- you can't be in it, pulling the levers and pushing the buttons, if you want to see the aftermath of the the chaos you've caused. With a giant robot, the person piloting it can see and control everything and be in the center of the destruction. Which is why I really agree with the statement that:



I think there's a reason stories where the heroes take on the bad guys hand-to-hand or in close combat are so popular- it makes the fighting personal. Quite unlike the guys who are randomly shot on the streets, who don't see who shot them because the shooters were far away and it was dark (not that you always see who stabs you, but guns make it FAR easier to be anonymous). Now, what that says about people, I cannot say. Maybe it's something about honor in fighting in close combat, maybe it's something about settling fights on your own- that's something for a different board.

But Mecha and giant robots brings it back, but with massive powerups (always popular), and bigger guns (which is also poular).

Sorry if this seems somewhat convoluted- it's been a long day =.="

No, I get what you're saying Atria. I definitely agree with this. When it comes to the mecha genre, one of its greatest appeals (as I see it at least) is to put out this sense of grandeur in battle, this sense of great power and force when being involved in a fight.
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Postby blkmage » Mon May 10, 2010 6:11 pm

But does that personalization and grandeur still hold for shows where the mecha are purely weapons or vehicles? In Geass, for instance, there's nothing particularly special about the Knightmare Frames beyond the fact that they were just better than conventional weapons. And in the first part of Geass (before we got into AU Gundam syndrome with super-powerful individual mecha flying around), the KMFs were treated as such. Or what about in 08th MS Team, which was basically guerilla warfare with mecha in South America?

Also, I can see the whole hand-to-hand combat thing where the mecha acts as a superhero (like in super robot) or in cases where the pilots act as knights, but there's also the case where pilots act are analogous to fighter pilots, like in Gundam or, better yet, Macross. The variable fighters in Macross don't have any melee combat capability. In Gundam, I can see the whole fighter ace rivalry thing going (the most famous example being between Char and Amuro), but I don't think there's any of that in Macross.
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