What kind of "Christian" Anime do you want?

[Midori]

I can imagine something like the regular fantasy anime I see, except that the characters pray to the one true God, instead of Gaia or the five spirits of magic or something.

This...I can't agree with though.

I didn't mean receiving magical power by praying. Take that statement within the context of my first and third paragraphs. I also don't mean praying to God in exactly the same manner as they would pray to those other things, I mean praying like real Christians do, and for the reasons Christians do.

[Nate]

No no, I know that's not what you meant. XD I didn't mean it like that. I'm just saying, I personally would not agree with showing like, wizards throwing fireballs and lightning bolts and still having Christianity.

It's not that I think "Oh it's because magic is wrong" because I know that real magic in the real world doesn't let you throw fireballs or lightning bolts or anything. It's just what I said earlier, that Christianity is real, and so mixing it with elements that aren't real and could never be real just opens it up to the "Christianity is make-believe, just like wizards and magical swords and displacer beasts."

It's the same kind of weirdness like in the Mexican "Santa Claus" movie where Santa, who lives in a flying castle above the North Pole and has flying robotic reindeer and hangs out with Merlin the wizard and has a magic flower to make him invisible, says "Now let us all give praise to Jesus Christ, the Son of God" after he finishes doing a Tom and Jerry-esque routine with a devil dressed in a red pantsuit named Pitch (who Satan says will be punished by being forced to eat chocolate ice cream if he fails to stop Santa from delivering toys to the world's children). It's like...um...it doesn't really fit together.

[Midori]

It's not that I think "Oh it's because magic is wrong" because I know that real magic in the real world doesn't let you throw fireballs or lightning bolts or anything. It's just what I said earlier, that Christianity is real, and so mixing it with elements that aren't real and could never be real just opens it up to the "Christianity is make-believe, just like wizards and magical swords and displacer beasts."

I see your point. That makes sense for evangelically-oriented shows, but I can't see it being a problem if it's a show intended for Christians, because they know that Christianity is real. While I realize a show intended for Christians would also be watched by plenty of non-Christians, it's the kind of Christian anime I'd like to see myself, rather than the kind of Christian anime I'd like to show to nonbelievers. The kind I'd like to show to nonbelievers would indeed have to be much more discreet about religion.

[Nate]

That's fine. I think now, we're more or less discussing our personal preferences, and while you would be cool with such a show, I wouldn't be, but it's just how I feel, so I don't think we can really discuss it in much more detail because then we'd just be going back and forth. XD

[The Doctor]

I just wanted to point out that most of the examples you gave are political in nature, not Christian or religious in nature. Being right or left wing politically has no impact on one's Christianity, and as such should have no impact on if a piece of media is considered pro or anti Christian.

Honestly, if someone wants to make something with a Christian message, I think they should do it while staying as far away from politics as possible. It's much easier to let Christ's love do the talking when there aren't politicians with loudspeakers drowning it out.

I was attempting to point out how they're masters of storytelling and implanting what they believe without coming out and saying it often times, while thrilling the viewer/reader with a sensational story. We should do the same.

[rocklobster]

What I think needs to be done is to create a story that can be enjoyed by Christians and non-Christians. That's what I really like about LOTR. It actually has fans of both sides. Too often, Christian media seems to be preaching to the choir.

[mechana2015]

I was attempting to point out how they're masters of storytelling and implanting what they believe without coming out and saying it often times, while thrilling the viewer/reader with a sensational story. We should do the same.

I have a question back. What sort of content is acceptable in a 'Christian' story?

One of the barriers in creating good Christian (named and accepted by the community) entertainment is the genre itself currently, which insists on specific things appearing within the stories, and other things being left out of stories, and possibly supporting a specific political viewpoint, otherwise they get kicked out of the genre.

Would you suggest widening the definition so there can be more realistic stories?

We see it fairly often with CCM artists who get a little too 'creative' and are either labeled as backslidden or kicked right off their recording label for not using the word 'Jesus' enough in their lyrics, or for writing lyrics with challanging content and a different viewpoint.

[Syreth]

Intriguing discussion. My take on this pretty much springboards off of rocklobster's and mechana2015's posts.

Too often, Christian media seems to be preaching to the choir.

Over the last few years I've developed an admittedly cynical attitude about Christian entertainment. To me it seems like Christian entertainment of any kind created for the sole purpose of "being Christian" cannot be marketed and sold normally. Instead, it has to be fueled by affluent donors who believe in the cause rather than by sales alone, such as is often the case in Christian radio or even in Christian music artists in general. People interested in entertainment are interested in being entertained.

For me, as far as entertainment goes, I want to be entertained, not indoctrinated. If what I'm watching or listening to is entertaining and has Christian values, then it's an added bonus. If the focus in entertainment shifts from "being entertaining" to "being Christian", then the focus is misplaced. As an example, imagine a producer that says, "Instead of focusing on making this creative work as imaginative and compelling as I can, I'm going to focus on making this creative work as Christian as I can first and foremost." It would be somewhat like a doctor preaching the Gospel to a patient in extreme pain before administering pain killers.

There are a few problems with this. One is that religious entertainment that is funded by donors is largely controlled by donors, not producers. Donors are not necessarily creative. Some may be. But donors who are interested in spreading their doctrine, Christian or otherwise, through entertainment tend to be more focused on good doctrine before good entertainment.

The next problem is an outflow of the first. Whenever you limit a product by something that has nothing to do with the function, purpose, or value of the product, you get an inferior product. If you limit entertainment with doctrine, you will get inferior entertainment.

Compelling, imaginative, entertaining anime first. If the producers are Christians, Christ will shine through in some way. Not only is making converts not really the point of entertainment, it will not likely happen.

So, perhaps instead of exploring all of the possibilities of how to insert Jesus into an anime, it would be more beneficial to first learn about how to produce good entertainment if that's the direction you wish to go in. Once you can entertain well, then people might see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Best case scenario, it will be a small contribution toward making Christian ideas less old-fashioned in the eyes of your viewers.

[Alcuinus]

[...]To me it seems like Christian entertainment of any kind created for the sole purpose of "being Christian" cannot be marketed and sold normally.[...]

"Facing the Giants" Sherwood Pictures 2006

Whenever you limit a product by something that has nothing to do with the function, purpose, or value of the product, you get an inferior product. If you limit entertainment with doctrine, you will get inferior entertainment.

The Christian doctrines permeate every part of life. Even a commitment to no fan service is resultant of doctrinal convictions. The point is that every entertainment piece (Christian or otherwise) is "limited by doctrine" (the person's world view).

Not only is making converts not really the point of entertainment, it will not likely happen.

Not only is it possible, but it has happened. And if it has happened, why should we avoid this noble (I'm sure we all agree) goal? Fireproof is the movie I had in mind, btw.

Best case scenario, it will be a small contribution toward making Christian ideas less old-fashioned in the eyes of your viewers.

Heheh... Those "old-fashioned" ideas are our dearly held beliefs, my friend. Or do you not know that God's Word and the Gospel are eternal and unchanging? You know, every generation has men who are corrupt and need forgiveness. There's no need to make that message "more relevant" to the people of today.

[uc pseudonym]

Part of the reason I haven't had anything to say on this topic was because different purposes were pulling against one another in my mind. But every medium needs variety, different works for different goals. So here are three different kinds of Christian anything I would like to see:

- Difficult stories written to challenge instead of reassure. There is a place for comfort, but all too often Christian entertainment is just patting ourselves on the back or creating fiction that supports a false view of reality (c.f. Slacktivist). Christianity is deeper and more complex than a few principles or political stances. Our entertainment should reflect that we believe God is great enough to disturb as well as comfort.

- Speculative fiction that doesn't reduce Christianity to Dungeons and Dragons. Genres like science fiction or epic fantasy have long been used to deal with serious issues and I think there's a place for this from a Christian perspective. But God needs to be treated in a way that is analogous to reality, not forced into some smaller framework.

So like others have said, people casting prayer fireballs is a terrible idea. But I don't have a problem with people casting fireballs so long as this is contained within the world's rules, same as if they had flamethrowers for some reason. I think this could make for an interesting parallel to the power we have with modern technology, or to show how humans use their real talents and abilities to try to control their lives. But if the unrealistic elements are included in a way that means the characters don't have to deal with the real issues that people in our world do, then the message is damaged (basically all spiritual warfare fiction has trouble with this).

- There also needs to be work firmly grounded in reality in order to deal with real issues. I think grace, love, and sacrifice are all values best expressed through historical examples instead of fiction. Though there's a place for fiction that alludes to serious issues like racism, I think we also need hard realism dealing with issues like modern slavery, genocide, and poverty.

It's not that I think "Oh it's because magic is wrong" because I know that real magic in the real world doesn't let you throw fireballs or lightning bolts or anything. It's just what I said earlier, that Christianity is real, and so mixing it with elements that aren't real and could never be real just opens it up to the "Christianity is make-believe, just like wizards and magical swords and displacer beasts."

I think this is a good point and I had to think about it for a while. We may be at the stage where it doesn’]separated[/i] God from the fantastic, if only to help disabuse Christians of that notion.

It’s like the Punching Out Cthulhu trope mentioned earlier. A lot of fiction treats deities as if they’re just wizards in the sky that can cast really big fireballs instead of small ones. But I think there is a place for a series that in effect says, “Even if humans could fly and shoot lightening and read minds, we wouldn’t be any closer to God than we already are. God is more than just power.” I think something like that could be respectful to Christianity, though obviously if you disagree that’s your prerogative.

[Radical Dreamer]

Not only is it possible, but it has happened. And if it has happened, why should we avoid this noble (I'm sure we all agree) goal? Fireproof is the movie I had in mind, btw.

Well, this really actually comes down to the fact that God can do whatever He wants, use whatever tools He wants, and work however He likes in someone's heart. It's less the movie that changed the person's heart than it is the fact that God changed the person's heart and simply chose to use that film as a tool. So yes, it can happen, and it's fantastic when it does. It just doesn't necessarily mean that it WILL happen. I think that may be what Syreth was trying to go for (though correct me if I'm wrong XD).

Heheh... Those "old-fashioned" ideas are our dearly held beliefs, my friend. Or do you not know that God's Word and the Gospel are eternal and unchanging? You know, every generation has men who are corrupt and need forgiveness. There's no need to make that message "more relevant" to the people of today.

I don't think anyone is saying that the ideas of Christianity are old-fashioned. Naturally, none of us would believe that, given that we hold to those beliefs. XD But I think he's saying that they are perceived as such by those who don't understand what it means to follow Christ--there are plenty of unsaved people who consider the ideas of our faith old-fashioned and irrelevant.

Anyways, my post in this thread has been a long time coming, but I agree with what a lot of you have already said, namely Mech, Nate, and UC. My two cents to add, however, is this: why do we feel like we need our entertainment labeled as "Christian?" There are plenty of films/anime out there that put forth a worldview of secular humanism, or maybe post-modernism, or even Buddhism or Shintoism. And yet, when you go to the store to buy a movie, you don't see a "Buddhist" section or an "Atheist" section, but you're pretty likely to see a "Christian" section (and if you can't find it there, then you can visit an entire Christian Bookstore down the street).

Honestly my brain just stopped working and I'm not really sure where I was going with this, but I think my point is that when it comes to entertainment, Christians want to separate themselves from it rather than infiltrate it. We are not of this world, but we are in it, and I think that watching only "Christian" movies and listening to only "Christian" music is really just sequestering ourselves away into a sterile Christian bubble. I won't bother to quote J.R.R. Tolkien again, because many already have, but I agree with him wholeheartedly--our worldview will show itself through the things we create. If we want to be successful in making art, then we should pay attention to and respect the masters, even if their works reflect their worldview and not our own. You have to be a good artist before you can make art in order to reflect your own worldview, but once you can, then make it, and the rest will fall into place.

[Alcuinus]

I think I'm seeing double O_O

EDIT: ok it was fixed

[mechana2015]

"Facing the Giants" Sherwood Pictures 2006

This movie wasn't marketed, or sold normally. The movie was funded through donations from a church with no expectation of profit, and profits were used to build a youth center, not maintain film making capability. Most of the actors and all the extras are from said church as well. The film got some attention but it's definitely not a conventionally produced movie. The same church did put together Fireproof.

Not only is it possible, but it has happened. And if it has happened, why should we avoid this noble (I'm sure we all agree) goal? Fireproof is the movie I had in mind, btw.

Fireproof and Facing the Giants were both financial successes, but critical failures, with neither gathering critical accolades outside of the Christian media market. IMDB for Facing the Giants is a solid 6 with a very obvious Christian contingent propping up the score against more critical responses, and it has a 9% on rotten tomatoes. Fireproof has a 5.5 and 40%, so there's been improvement critically... but it's far from competitive so far, and both of these movies have been criticized as uninteresting to anyone outside of the already-a-christian market. On top of that, the financial success in both cases was in a large part due to whole Churches going and seeing the movie, not droves of regular moviegoers seeing it and being exposed to its message.

[Alcuinus]

Fireproof and Facing the Giants were both financial successes, but critical failures

My point was that these two movies had uncompromising Christian basis', and with Fireproof making 4th at the box office opening weekend, it's a very hard sell to say it was limited to the Christian audience.

[mechana2015]

My point was that these two movies had uncompromising Christian basis', and with Fireproof making 4th at the box office opening weekend, it's a very hard sell to say it was limited to the Christian audience.

4th on opening weekend when your intended audience is supposedly over 50% of the US population is pretty bad. Especially since the opposing pieces were Eagle Eye, which grossed nearly all of Fireproof's total take in it's first weekend on a 28% approval, and Nights in Rodanthe, which got a 31% approval and only grossed 13 million, and still beat it. 3rd was Lakeview Terrace taking a 50% DROP in it's gross from the previous weekend, and still beating it out.

[Nate]

One of the barriers in creating good Christian (named and accepted by the community) entertainment is the genre itself currently, which insists on specific things appearing within the stories, and other things being left out of stories, and possibly supporting a specific political viewpoint, otherwise they get kicked out of the genre.

This, this, this. The problem is that the Christianity in a movie or song or book has to adhere to certain guidelines, or else mainstream Christians are going to heavily criticize it or accuse it of being anti-Christian. So we have the Dr. Who example earlier (which I already spoke of), but as I said earlier, if I made a film based on my Christian beliefs and said "War is bad, and we should take care of the planet," I would be reviled and demonized by most Christian groups. It would be trashed and called "liberal leftist propaganda" and "an affront to Christian beliefs" and probably a whole bunch of other stuff.

This is actually a major obstacle to Christian anime. Some groups are going to be offended by certain doctrine portrayed, for example communion, cosmology, environmentalism, confession, predestination, and so on. Since secular entertainment doesn't really care about stepping on each other's toes it's a lot freer to be able to send the kind of message it wants. I mentioned this earlier, about the only thing Christians of different denominations can agree on is "Jesus is the Son of God and he died on a cross and rose from the dead three days later." Practically everything other than that is debated.

That's the problem is you could produce something that say, Baptists like, but oops, now you've got the Catholics upset by something. So you try to appease the Catholics and crap, now the Lutherans are offended.
[quote="uc"]“Even if humans could fly and shoot lightening and read minds, we wouldn’t be any closer to God than we already are. God is more than just power.â€

[Syreth]

Pretty much every point made in clarification of my post was accurate. I'll just clarify one point further.

The point is that every entertainment piece (Christian or otherwise) is "limited by doctrine" (the person's world view).

Personally, I think there should be a distinction made between worldviews and doctrines. Imagine a church funding the creation of a movie, such as in the case of Fireproof or Facing the Giants - they would most likely want any religious themes in the movie to accurately represent the spiritual beliefs of their church (their doctrines).

Now, imagine an individual who is producing a film based off of a script that the individual had written. Naturally, that individual's perception of reality (the individual's worldview) is going to influence the movie as it takes shape. I don't hold it against you if you make that distinction differently, that's just what I had in mind when I wrote my post about limiting doctrine with entertainment.

[The Doctor]

This has been a very enlightening discussion. I've learned a lot from this, thank you.

[Midknight74012]

Alright, lets try to compile all this information. This'll be fun
1. Christian anime should not have direct mention of the Christian religion but having Christian values in it is alright so long as you can be clever on how to apply it.
2. In extreme cases, like how me, Nate, Atria, and others were talking about, much research, much more consideration, and for bonus points actually talk to people who were in those situations and how they recovered from it. And not just from one person for one subject, you'd need a large sample size per subject.
3. Don't slam biblical values into the faces of the audience, pastor it, or sugar coat it. All living creatures are susceptible to the hardships of the world, whether the actions of the assailant are discriminate or not. But that doesn't mean we should always stand by and do nothing.
4. The abilities of the main characters must obey the rules of the universe. Example: In our universe, if we want to throw a punch, we have to sacrifice some energy to do so. In the, say, Zero no Tsukaima, the characters use elemental magic but consumes willpower to do so.

Anyone care to correct and/or add to it?

[Sailor Kenshin]

Why should it not mention Christian values? Or sugar-coat them?

Not that it HAS to; one of the greatest of all Christian novels never mentions Christ.

[Midknight74012]

try reading it again. I said No Direct mention of the Christian religion but having Christian values in it is alright.

[Nate]

I don't think there's anything wrong with directly mentioning Christianity. It really depends on the setting. For example, a Christian anime set in Japan would have to be very clever with how to introduce or mention Christianity, since Japan has an extremely low number of Christians.

I think what I and others were saying is, if the anime does explicitly mention Christianity, it has to be done in a natural way that makes sense. Don't make it like a Jack Chick tract, in other words ("Man I really hate bees!" "What? Jesus loves bees and has a purpose for them in Creation!" "Jesus? Who's that?" "Oh, let me tell you!").

[mechana2015]

[quote="Sailor Kenshin (post: 1391918)"]Why should it not mention Christian values? Or sugar-coat them?

Not that it HAS to]

Preachyness is one of the main turn-offs to non-Christians when watching christian media, right up there with unrealistic or stereotypical portrayals of Christians and non-Christians.

That being said, if you are making the anime for an audience that is already Christian, for the purpose of entertaining and edifying them, you can include more blatant theological and moralizing content. It won't make a good story necessarily, but sometimes it works, and it's less likely to make them disinterested in the whole show.

[Midknight74012]

Well, my thinking on it was with such a low number of Christians in Japan and if the ones watching found out this anime directly mentions Christianity, they would be just "Meh, not interested. Changing channels" Anyway, that was my best guess on that.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Preachyness is one of the main turn-offs to non-Christians when watching christian media, right up there with unrealistic or stereotypical portrayals of Christians and non-Christians.

That being said, if you are making the anime for an audience that is already Christian, for the purpose of entertaining and edifying them, you can include more blatant theological and moralizing content. It won't make a good story necessarily, but sometimes it works, and it's less likely to make them disinterested in the whole show.

'Preachiness and sugar-coating' have nothing whatever to do with Christian values made plain.

Have you read of St. Francis Xavier, who evangelized Japan? And the Japanese martyrs? It was a real eye-opener. If I can find the link to the story----well, it made me cry.

[mechana2015]

'Preachiness and sugar-coating' have nothing whatever to do with Christian values made plain.

Have you read of St. Francis Xavier, who evangelized Japan? And the Japanese martyrs? It was a real eye-opener. If I can find the link to the story----well, it made me cry.

More straightforward question.

Who would you market a christian anime to, non-Christians or Christians?

Stories about people martyred in Japan would do well with Christians, especially Christians in the united states. They might do ok with non-Christians in the US. They would most likely do terribly with the general Japanese populace.

A somewhat relevant example would be the movie fireproof. Made 33 Million in the US, but internationally it pulled in a measly 16,000.

[Midknight74012]

More straightforward question.

Who would you market a christian anime to, non-Christians or Christians?

Stories about people martyred in Japan would do well with Christians, especially Christians in the united states. They might do ok with non-Christians in the US. They would most likely do terribly with the general Japanese populace.

And if you want the audience to be the world, you have to be clever. Not preaching it cause we leave that to the experts. Sugar coating Christianity is not a good idea because we suffer many hardships, more so than others, but it shows how much faith we have in our relationship. If you coat that, and a new Christian finds out just how hard it really is, more than likely they'll turn back to their old ways. And I don't think anyone likes it when a foreigner mentions how bad we made mistakes in our nation. Would you? Certainly not the Japanese and mentioning that just doesn't sit well with them. They'd be ashamed and don't want anything to do with what your serving.

[Nate]

Have you read of St. Francis Xavier, who evangelized Japan? And the Japanese martyrs? It was a real eye-opener. If I can find the link to the story----well, it made me cry.

Which, as mech said, is fine if you want to create an anime for American Christians. But are you trying to evangelize to Japanese non-Christians? If so, you've already lost. They would never watch a show about how they were wrong to do these things.

Let me put it this way. Do you think a movie about Pearl Harbor, which portrayed the Americans as the bad guys and the Japanese as the suffering underdogs who were righteous and noble for attacking the Pearl Harbor base, would do well with Americans? I seriously doubt it. This is why an anime about the Japanese martyrs would do horrible in Japan.

I still don't necessarily think mentioning Christianity in an anime would immediately turn off Japanese audiences...like I said, it depends on how it's handled. If it's handled poorly then yeah, it would. If it was handled delicately, I think it could work. Remember that to Japan, Christianity is kind of a cool foreign thing. Think about how Americans view Roman/Greek paganism, and how "Whoa, Clash of the Titans is so cool, Perseus totally kicked the crap out of the kraken!" That's kind of how Japanese people view Christianity, a cool myth. This is why they use Christianity as symbols to make an anime seem cool or deep, the same way as say, that Percy Jackson movie used Greek/Roman paganism to seem cool and deep. Because it's foreign and mystical.

[rocklobster]

Yeah, look at anime titles like Chrono Crusade. They mix it up in there and take all kinds of liberties (like having a demon actually be nice). But it still, IMHO, makes for quite the story.

[Sailor Kenshin]

More straightforward question.

Who would you market a christian anime to, non-Christians or Christians?

Stories about people martyred in Japan would do well with Christians, especially Christians in the united states. They might do ok with non-Christians in the US. They would most likely do terribly with the general Japanese populace.

Why?

Things that move people tend to be universal. Stories of love, sacrifice, tragedy.

If we weep when we watch Grave of the Fireflies, why would you assume Japanese people have a higher emotional threshold for that sort of story?

In fact they tend to see Westerners as LESS emotional.