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I don't believe this! - Page 4 - CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

I don't believe this!

The real heart of CAA; discuss specific series, issues, and things related to anime here.

Postby ~darkelfgirl~ » Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:31 pm

Raiden no Kishi (post: 1216878) wrote:Also remember that this is an anime forum. We're going to go somewhat in-depth about anime. Because of the demographic, anime is a big deal here. I will, however, agree that drama should be avoided.

Yeah, you're among anime freaks. It could be a ton worse. A TON worse. Go check out some other anime forums without the restraint we show here. On second thought, don't. You wouldn't want to.

.rai//


:D I know. That's why I signed up here. It's like a verbal slaughterhouse on the other anime forums. With f-bombs all over the place. In the end, nothing gets solved or resolved. Sounds like Deviant Art.

Ur, let me count my blessings.
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Postby Fish and Chips » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:06 pm

Cognitive Gear (post: 1216866) wrote:Children's minds are constantly and quickly developing, and would benefit from entertainment with substance.

In my experience, show/films aimed at children but with mature themes make the best children's entertainment. Most of the popular Disney animated features are actually quite dark, song and dance numbers aside, and more than a handful of weekday afternoon cartoons, such as Warner Brother's Batman.
Cognitive Gear (post: 1216866) wrote:OT: You know, I think that debate is severely under-rated these days. The debate taking place here has largely been civil, and quite an interesting read. Let it be noted that I'm just offering up a different opinion to those that seem to be off-put by the current conversation.

To clarify a bit, I love a good debate, but I'm finding this current one a bit too ridiculous to take as seriously as some of you people are ("facetious," said the Raiden knowingly). Now all discussions carry some tension, and so far this thread's been moderately civil, but some of you people come off as boiling just under the surface, and a couple of you are leaking. If you don't appreciate my lighter treatment of this thread, I apologize, but seriously guys, you're on a trip wire.
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:34 pm

I know some of you are freaking out right now, but I think this thread is one of the most interesting and engaging ones I've seen on here in a while. XD I like being able to discuss stuff with mature people. You sure don't find that elsewhere on the intarwebs very often.
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:33 pm

ShiroiHikari (post: 1216901) wrote:I know some of you are freaking out right now, but I think this thread is one of the most interesting and engaging ones I've seen on here in a while. XD I like being able to discuss stuff with mature people. You sure don't find that elsewhere on the intarwebs very often.


You know, aside from avoiding a bit of drama, I've really enjoyed this. It's allowed me to bounce my thoughts off of people and make sure I'm presenting them accurately. That's worth a lot to me.

.rai//
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Postby Radical Dreamer » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:33 pm

Fish and Chips (post: 1216839) wrote:Image

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RON.



Best post in the thread.

Thanks for trying to keep it as civil as possible, guys. XD Please continue!
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Postby Nate » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:07 pm

Raiden no Kishi wrote:What I'm trying to say is that often when the merchandising comes before the story, you end up with these very contrived premises - ancient powers in a kids' trading card game

Actually you know what? In this whole debate I completely forgot a piece of important information.

The Yu-Gi-Oh manga came FIRST. The trading card game is based on the fictional game portrayed in the manga. In other words, Kazuki Takahashi invented a game for his manga, and a trading card company said, "Hey, wouldn't it be neat if we took this game you invented for your manga and made an actual game out of it?"

By the way, the Duel Monsters cards appear early on in the series, during the "darker and more mature" arc of the story, as you put it. They were introduced briefly during the first manga arc, but it wasn't until the second manga arc that they became the focus of the series.

So, your statements about "shows shouldn't be made to sell merchandise" doesn't even apply to Yu-Gi-Oh, because the manga came FIRST, and the card game came SECOND!

I believe, then, that this would be a point for me. :3

As far as it being contrived for trading cards to hold untold power, I believe it has something to do with the whole ancient Egypt thing they explain in the series...something about how the monsters were originally sealed in stone tablets, and then they learned how to seal them into smaller, more portable forms? Something like that. I've actually honestly never watched Yu-Gi-Oh, but it seems to make sense to me.

Besides, I fail to see how monsters sealed in trading cards is any more contrived than monsters sealed in stones and people being too stupid to know how to put a hat on their head unless they get a License for it, which happens in Final Fantasy XII, which you apparently like, at least, you have an avatar with a character from that game in it. ]I am, however, saying that the merchandise portion of the property has handicapped the storytellers by requiring that they work with dubious premises.[/QUOTE]
This also does not apply to Yu-Gi-Oh, becaaaaaauuuuuuuse in the manga and anime the rules change completely at the drop of a hat to serve the plot. Thus, the manga/anime is not limited by the merchandise. Actually, in the case of Yu-Gi-Oh, it's the opposite! In order to make it a playable card game, Konami (the company that makes the game) had to put down a set of consistent and balanced rules, rather than the constant fluctuation of them in the series. So rather, the merchandise is limited to make it fair and playable, and the anime/manga is completely unrestricted.

The more you know, eh? :p
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:53 pm

Nate (post: 1217040) wrote:Actually you know what? In this whole debate I completely forgot a piece of important information.

The Yu-Gi-Oh manga came FIRST. The trading card game is based on the fictional game portrayed in the manga. In other words, Kazuki Takahashi invented a game for his manga, and a trading card company said, "Hey, wouldn't it be neat if we took this game you invented for your manga and made an actual game out of it?"

By the way, the Duel Monsters cards appear early on in the series, during the "darker and more mature" arc of the story, as you put it. They were introduced briefly during the first manga arc, but it wasn't until the second manga arc that they became the focus of the series.

So, your statements about "shows shouldn't be made to sell merchandise" doesn't even apply to Yu-Gi-Oh, because the manga came FIRST, and the card game came SECOND!

I believe, then, that this would be a point for me. :3

Regardless, I find it incredibly hard to believe that a manga creator would decide to write a story about a trading card game without merchandising being a major consideration. A trading card game, Nate. Seriously. It doesn't make any sense from a storyteller's standpoint, which is what Takahashi is. You may find this link interesting: An Interview with Takahashi. Turns out that he was planning to make Duel Monsters/Magic & Wizards disappear like the rest of the games in the series - there for the plot, then going away for the next one. But it was fan mail expressing interest in playing the game IRL (say, sounds like merchandise) that drove the focus on the card game. Fascinating, no?

As far as it being contrived for trading cards to hold untold power, I believe it has something to do with the whole ancient Egypt thing they explain in the series...something about how the monsters were originally sealed in stone tablets, and then they learned how to seal them into smaller, more portable forms? Something like that. I've actually honestly never watched Yu-Gi-Oh, but it seems to make sense to me.

I do know it came from the stone tablets and whatnot, but a worldwide kids' trading card game? That's just daft.

Besides, I fail to see how monsters sealed in trading cards is any more contrived than monsters sealed in stones and people being too stupid to know how to put a hat on their head unless they get a License for it, which happens in Final Fantasy XII, which you apparently like, at least, you have an avatar with a character from that game in it. ]

Ah, but this is irrelevant to me. I have a Balthier avatar because I like the character from what I know of him. I don't pretend to be any sort of advocate for the game's mechanics, and have not, in fact, played the game. I will agree with you that monsters sealed in stones and people needing some sort of license to be able to wear a hat is ridiculous.

Also I'd like to say Cowboy Bebop is pretty freaking contrived considering it is basically impossible to set up habitable colonies on other planets or satellites. So if you can accept that impossibility, I'd say monsters in cards is pretty much the same.

True, they do bend what we know about our solar system in order to have that. It would be physically impossible to live on the other planets in our solar system. I won't argue that. However, I would argue that it's easier to bend the rules (as most stories do in some way) to make an uninhabitable planet IRL inhabitable in-story, because we live on a life-supporting planet. We can relate it to something we know. We just assume that, because the series takes place in the future, that we have developed terraforming technology that far. In fact, the series could stand if they kept everything on Earth. You'd just have airships instead of spaceships. Completely doable. However, I again refer you to the idea of mythical creatures sealed into trading cards. Trading cards available to children. You could acquire them pretty much anywhere without so much as an age check. Do you seriously think that would EVER AT ALL POSSIBLY be reasonable? It's just ridiculous.

This also does not apply to Yu-Gi-Oh, becaaaaaauuuuuuuse in the manga and anime the rules change completely at the drop of a hat to serve the plot. Thus, the manga/anime is not limited by the merchandise. Actually, in the case of Yu-Gi-Oh, it's the opposite! In order to make it a playable card game, Konami (the company that makes the game) had to put down a set of consistent and balanced rules, rather than the constant fluctuation of them in the series. So rather, the merchandise is limited to make it fair and playable, and the anime/manga is completely unrestricted.

Actually, the fluid/nonexistent nature of the rules in the Yu-Gi-Oh! series only furthers my point that it's a ridiculous premise. Do you think a card game with such loose, vague rules would ever become a phenomenon? How would you have world tournaments? How would you know what your cards did or how good they were? How would you know who won? It's still a merchandise-based premise, being about a card game, and it's still a ridiculous premise that harms it as a story.

Again, read the interview. I'd say the facts clearly support merchandising driving Yu-Gi-Oh! as we know it.

The more you know, eh? :p

Indeed.

.rai//
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:49 am

So y'all are still seriously discussing little kids' shows and whether or not the toys came first? :shady:
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:57 am

Shao Feng-Li (post: 1217100) wrote:So y'all are still seriously discussing little kids' shows and whether or not the toys came first? :shady:


How terrible that we might discuss the philosophies behind today's entertainment.

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Postby Nate » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:10 pm

Raiden no Kishi wrote: You may find this link interesting: An Interview with Takahashi. Turns out that he was planning to make Duel Monsters/Magic & Wizards disappear like the rest of the games in the series - there for the plot, then going away for the next one.

That kind of supports what I was saying. O.o That he wasn't making the series for merchandising. It was just part of the plot, and was going to be like the other games in the manga. He didn't have merchandising in mind when he created it, it was just another story.

You said that storytelling should come first, and merchandising should come second. That's exactly what happened here. He made a story, people expressed interest in it, and then merchandise was made.

I'd say that this is exactly the same position Star Wars was in. Lucas made the Ewoks, kids expressed an interest in them, and then those Ewok movies and cartoon were made for merchandising purposes. Lucas didn't plan to make Ewok spinoffs, but fan response caused it to happen
Regardless, I find it incredibly hard to believe that a manga creator would decide to write a story about a trading card game without merchandising being a major consideration. A trading card game, Nate.

Yeah but remember, the trading card game was at first merely a small part of the plot. Yugi played all sorts of games before the second story arc. It wasn't until the fan response that he decided to focus on that. It still wasn't an instance of making a story for merchandising purposes. At that point, the merchandise didn't exist! What good would it be to advertise something that doesn't exist?

Again, if the card game came before the second manga arc, you'd have a very valid point. But as it stands, Takahashi did exactly what you said should happen. Have a story first, merchandising second.
Seriously. It doesn't make any sense from a storyteller's standpoint, which is what Takahashi is.

I'd say given that the manga/anime are about the various games that Yugi plays with people to toy with them, I'd say it makes perfect sense from a storyteller's standpoint.
I do know it came from the stone tablets and whatnot, but a worldwide kids' trading card game? That's just daft.

Silly Putty was invented as a cheap substitute for rubber during World War II because natural rubber was difficult to obtain from the East. However, the substitute was very bouncy and gooey - certainly not useful for a rubber substitute. But then a strategy was hit upon. Make it a children's toy! A synthetic product designed to help the war turned into a worldwide kids' playtoy? That's just daft.
people needing some sort of license to be able to wear a hat is ridiculous.

Heh heh, the one pretty good VG Cats comic. XD "DURR, DURR, HAT GO ON FOOT."
However, I again refer you to the idea of mythical creatures sealed into trading cards. Trading cards available to children. You could acquire them pretty much anywhere without so much as an age check. Do you seriously think that would EVER AT ALL POSSIBLY be reasonable? It's just ridiculous.

Well supposedly it's only the God Cards that have potentially catastrophic effects that can be created with them. There's only three of them but an item that could cause fantastic amounts of destruction like that would certainly get most world leaders interested I would think, while the rest of the cards would be pretty much harmless.
It's still a merchandise-based premise, being about a card game, and it's still a ridiculous premise that harms it as a story.

But it isn't a merchandise-based premise, it was a plot point that got overwhelming support from fans thus spawning merchandise, like I said about the Ewoks earlier. XD
Again, read the interview. I'd say the facts clearly support merchandising driving Yu-Gi-Oh! as we know it.

I'd say the facts clearly support the fans driving Yu-Gi-Oh as we know it, specifically the part where it says, "Originally, I'd planned to phase out that particular game in two episodes. But the reader response we got was enormous."
So y'all are still seriously discussing little kids' shows and whether or not the toys came first?

*Homestar voice* I know! Can you believe it? :p
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:22 pm

Well, at least you guys aren't flinging around personal insults and burning each other's houses down.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:44 pm

Not as much fun though...
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Postby uc pseudonym » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:05 pm

Stepping in to add a few comments that will hopefully be informative, if not helpful.

Nate wrote:As far as it being contrived for trading cards to hold untold power, I believe it has something to do with the whole ancient Egypt thing they explain in the series...something about how the monsters were originally sealed in stone tablets, and then they learned how to seal them into smaller, more portable forms? Something like that. I've actually honestly never watched Yu-Gi-Oh, but it seems to make sense to me.

I read the manga, so I can confirm that you're essentially correct. Just why Pegasus chose cards and how making it a children's game helps him with his goals is very unclear, in my opinion.

[quote="Nate"]Besides, I fail to see how monsters sealed in trading cards is any more contrived than monsters sealed in stones and people being too stupid to know how to put a hat on their head unless they get a License for it, which happens in Final Fantasy XII, which you apparently like, at least, you have an avatar with a character from that game in it. ]
How much sense does it make to have a hat that helps you defend against magic? Or, for that matter, to have magic in the first place? I always assumed that the License was necessary in order to allow your character to interact with the magical properties of the equipment.
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:42 pm

Nate (post: 1217169) wrote:That kind of supports what I was saying. O.o That he wasn't making the series for merchandising. It was just part of the plot, and was going to be like the other games in the manga. He didn't have merchandising in mind when he created it, it was just another story.

You said that storytelling should come first, and merchandising should come second. That's exactly what happened here. He made a story, people expressed interest in it, and then merchandise was made.

I'd say that this is exactly the same position Star Wars was in. Lucas made the Ewoks, kids expressed an interest in them, and then those Ewok movies and cartoon were made for merchandising purposes. Lucas didn't plan to make Ewok spinoffs, but fan response caused it to happen

Yeah but remember, the trading card game was at first merely a small part of the plot. Yugi played all sorts of games before the second story arc. It wasn't until the fan response that he decided to focus on that. It still wasn't an instance of making a story for merchandising purposes. At that point, the merchandise didn't exist! What good would it be to advertise something that doesn't exist?

Again, if the card game came before the second manga arc, you'd have a very valid point. But as it stands, Takahashi did exactly what you said should happen. Have a story first, merchandising second.

I'd say given that the manga/anime are about the various games that Yugi plays with people to toy with them, I'd say it makes perfect sense from a storyteller's standpoint.

Silly Putty was invented as a cheap substitute for rubber during World War II because natural rubber was difficult to obtain from the East. However, the substitute was very bouncy and gooey - certainly not useful for a rubber substitute. But then a strategy was hit upon. Make it a children's toy! A synthetic product designed to help the war turned into a worldwide kids' playtoy? That's just daft.

Heh heh, the one pretty good VG Cats comic. XD "DURR, DURR, HAT GO ON FOOT."

Well supposedly it's only the God Cards that have potentially catastrophic effects that can be created with them. There's only three of them but an item that could cause fantastic amounts of destruction like that would certainly get most world leaders interested I would think, while the rest of the cards would be pretty much harmless.

But it isn't a merchandise-based premise, it was a plot point that got overwhelming support from fans thus spawning merchandise, like I said about the Ewoks earlier. XD

I'd say the facts clearly support the fans driving Yu-Gi-Oh as we know it, specifically the part where it says, "Originally, I'd planned to phase out that particular game in two episodes. But the reader response we got was enormous."


Nate, you're missing my point. Yes, Duel Monsters/Magic & Wizards did exist before the series became focused on it. That's why it was going to fade out of the story in two episodes. That's how it should have been, from my perspective. It was created to serve the story. However, all the kids took a serious interest in a real-life version of DM/M&W. At that point, the entire series changes to focus on the card game, and the real-life card game goes into production. There you go. Merchandising drives the story. The anime/manga now serves the card game.

You're right when you say that Takahashi didn't have merchandising in mind when he created that. I'll grant that. However, the point still stands that he completely changed the series' focus in order to fit the demand for the merchandise. It became a series about the card game. The facts support this. The story changed essentially, away from the original premise. It changed when the opportunity arose for merchandising. When it changed, merchandising drove the story. My point stands.

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Postby Doubleshadow » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:33 pm

The chicken or the egg, guys.

And just because I can:
http://www.lolcats.com/view/11283
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Postby Nate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:58 am

Well I think we've finally hit the end of this debate, as at this point all that's really left is to yell "NO U!" at each other endlessly and that's just pointless. XP However, once again to reiterate my point:
Raiden no Kishi wrote:It changed when the opportunity arose for merchandising. When it changed, merchandising drove the story. My point stands.

And I disagree, and I still say that it changed when the fan response for the card game was overwhelming, and he changed the story to please the fans. The merchandising was incidental. If fans said "I thought the card game story arc was lame but I'd like to play the game" and he still made it focus on the card game, just to promote the merchandise, then I'd agree with you, but the fact is people loved that story arc, and he just gave them more of what they wanted.

And so I guess you and I will just have to interpret these events differently, because I don't think either of us will change the other's mind. XP

However, I will admit Yu-Gi-Oh GX is totally merchandise-driven and probably pretty terrible.
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:00 pm

Nate (post: 1217439) wrote:Well I think we've finally hit the end of this debate, as at this point all that's really left is to yell "NO U!" at each other endlessly and that's just pointless. XP However, once again to reiterate my point:

And I disagree, and I still say that it changed when the fan response for the card game was overwhelming, and he changed the story to please the fans. The merchandising was incidental. If fans said "I thought the card game story arc was lame but I'd like to play the game" and he still made it focus on the card game, just to promote the merchandise, then I'd agree with you, but the fact is people loved that story arc, and he just gave them more of what they wanted.

And so I guess you and I will just have to interpret these events differently, because I don't think either of us will change the other's mind. XP

However, I will admit Yu-Gi-Oh GX is totally merchandise-driven and probably pretty terrible.


I don't see how the interview indicates that the kids cared about the story as much as wanting to play the card game. Here's the verbatim quote: "But the reader response we got was enormous. Shonen Jump started getting calls from all these kids who wanted to know more about the game -- how to play it, where they could get it." Seems like the kids wanted the card game as much as anything. I mean, that's the mangaka saying it, not me.

But hey, whatever, right? Won't stop how much it sucks now.

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Postby Mave » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:12 pm

I'll comment on YuGiOH since this is the only title in this thread I've read or watched the most.

I generally agree that the story of YuGiOH started off pretty good and merchandising resulted from there. How merchandising impacted the quality of YugiOH after that? I don't know and think that's a matter of opinion. There will always be some tradeoffs between exercising creativity vs meeting commercial needs (I see this in my job everyday). I wouldn't be surprised if some ideas will sacificed in order to keep the studio alive and keep merchandising going.

Am I happy with that? Not really but I'm not crying over it either. Nothing's gonna be perfect, but it's good enough for me.


However, I will admit Yu-Gi-Oh GX is totally merchandise-driven and probably pretty terrible.
I suspect that as well and I'm sorry, the main character in GX isn't as hot looking. I confess that I only like YuGiOH because of the attractive character designs - I'm digging Yuugi's leather & chains fashion sense. Seto's got a bad attitude but I still think he's cute. Forget the storyplot and the cards, YuGiOH also appealed to a whole bunch of fangirls who couldn't care less about the quality of the story.

Come to think of it, card game merchandising is fine. It may have made the storyplot weaker but I have more issues with fandom merchandising [e.g. doujinshis, fanarts.....there are many UNSPEAKABLE EVIL YuGiOH fan-driven merchandises out there and I'm not talking about the cards parents are freaking out over]. Now, that's just wrong and it's even worse if the studio made creative changes to the story to suit that type of fan. For crying out loud, if this show was originally intended for kids, pls don't encourage a bunch of crazy girls who want to see Joe and Seto do more than fight card games.

Praise God if BeyBlade never goes down the evil fandom fate that poor YuGiOH did. I pick stupidity over obscene and apologize to everyone that I took this thread down another path.

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Postby Nate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:51 pm

Mave wrote:I confess that I only like YuGiOH because of the attractive character designs

Yeah Anzu's pretty hot too.

But it seems like 98% of the Yu-Gi-Oh fans are all over Black Magician Girl. Come on, man! Where is the Anzu love?
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Postby KhakiBlueSocks » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:08 pm

::Makes a mental note to never subscribe to a post where Nate replies because it'll drain his Blackjack Battery when he tries to read all of it::

Back on subject--what would make Beyblade more tolorable?
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Postby Nate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:19 pm

More hot chicks.

I mean hey I'd watch it then.
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Postby Raiden no Kishi » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

I will second the favoring of Yugi's fashion sense, and I think Seto was one of the reasons purple's my favorite color. I still want a purple trenchcoat.

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Postby Nate » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:28 pm

And green hair.

That way I could yell "SCREW THE RULES, I HAVE GREEN HAIR!" and laugh at my own joke while nobody else knew what I was talking about. And also they would say "Look at that guy with green hair, he looks like an idiot."
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Postby teigeki_calesa » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:41 am

Mave (post: 1217557) wrote:Forget the storyplot and the cards, YuGiOH also appealed to a whole bunch of fangirls who couldn't care less about the quality of the story.

Come to think of it, card game merchandising is fine. It may have made the storyplot weaker but I have more issues with fandom merchandising [e.g. doujinshis, fanarts.....there are many UNSPEAKABLE EVIL YuGiOH fan-driven merchandises out there and I'm not talking about the cards parents are freaking out over]. Now, that's just wrong and it's even worse if the studio made creative changes to the story to suit that type of fan. For crying out loud, if this show was originally intended for kids, pls don't encourage a bunch of crazy girls who want to see Joe and Seto do more than fight card games.

Praise God if BeyBlade never goes down the evil fandom fate that poor YuGiOH did. I pick stupidity over obscene and apologize to everyone that I took this thread down another path.

~ Cheers

I think I know who those type of fangirls are. And they're part of the nasty hordes that I was talking about]Yeah Anzu's pretty hot too.

But it seems like 98% of the Yu-Gi-Oh fans are all over Black Magician Girl. Come on, man! Where is the Anzu love?[/QUOTE]
YGO fans think Anzu is annoying and useless...and I disagree with that and all of their other reasons; she's one of the few female anime characters I actually have respect for.

" wrote:Most of the popular Disney animated features are actually quite dark, song and dance numbers aside

Uhm....I think I'm becoming a lot more dense now. Disney and dark mature themes don't usually go together, and now they are?
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Postby Nate » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:01 am

teigeki_calesa wrote:YGO fans think Anzu is annoying and useless...

Man I don't care how annoying or useless she is, she's hot. And fans need to realize her hotness!
Uhm....I think I'm becoming a lot more dense now. Disney and dark mature themes don't usually go together, and now they are?

Never seen The Black Cauldron, eh? :p
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Postby ShiroiHikari » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:53 am

Some Disney films have darkness lurking under the candy shell. Like, Pinocchio wasn't exactly all sweetness and light. Neither was Dumbo or Snow White or Sleeping Beauty.
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Postby Doubleshadow » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:12 am

The Disney animators and executives realized that the most popular movies had an element of darkness to them after the success of Snow White versus the previous shorts which were positive the whole way through. An element of darkness, usually in the form of tragedy, has been part of the formula ever since.
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Postby Mr. SmartyPants » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:52 pm

Anime sux I hate all of it manga sux too it's all azn crap and azns make the wurst tv shows and wurst books cuz they sux at it.
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Postby uc pseudonym » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:25 pm

KhakiBlueSocks wrote:Back on subject--what would make Beyblade more tolorable?

Presuming it remains a children's show? I would have no problem with it as that with a few elements:
- overarching plot
- more than villain-of-the-week antagonists
- character development
- parts not about training or fighting

teigeki_calesa wrote:YGO fans think Anzu is annoying and useless...and I disagree with that and all of their other reasons]
In the interest of understanding other perspectives, could you explain why you respect her character?

Mr. SmartyPants wrote:Anime sux I hate all of it manga sux too it's all azn crap and azns make the wurst tv shows and wurst books cuz they sux at it.

wut
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Postby Fish and Chips » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:44 pm

teigeki_calesa (post: 1217674) wrote:Uhm....I think I'm becoming a lot more dense now. Disney and dark mature themes don't usually go together, and now they are?

Actually, they've been peanut butter and jelly for some time. It's only more recently with their removal that Disney films have gone downhill. A couple titles are lighter material than others, but still.

The Lion King has betrayal and misplaced guilt, and Beauty and the Beast shows issues with vanity, deception, self-aggrandizement among others; The Hunchback of Notre Dame alone deals with social isolation, lust, condemnation, and corruption, and racism. Sleeping Beauty has dark sorcery, Tarzan covers poaching and a man is strangled to death.

I can continue if you'd like.
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