RIP Chris Benoit

[beau99]

Because none of them want a blackeye when a normal guy goes ape-crap and kills his entire family.

That's the thing you don't seem to get: He WASN'T a normal guy.

He definitely wasn't himself when this happened, and there's no doubt in my mind that steroids were not the cause. If it was drugs, he would've done everything in one go, instead of waiting three days.

[Jingo Jaden]

I think I will just pop in with a short saying about steriods. Among some of the long term effects you can get by takeing these disasterus drugs are mood changes. Big time. Some of these giant people can get the mood changes at the level of a 12 year old girl, if not even younger. Now, imagen a 12 year old girl who for some reason is extremely angry. And this 12 year old girl happens to be in the body of a extremely strong person with tons of combat experiense. Well, things could get nasty at times I think it is fair to say.

Now, this is far from a defence, because when you take drugs like those, you are not only harming yourself, but increasing the possibility to harm other people as well. Sure you get a big and strong body, but, you will feel pretty dang small at the same time too. And you will have a harder time to control yourself. Which may sound weird to some. However that terrible drug messes with your mind. Perhaps not in the short term, but defidently in the long term. As for the case, it seems unclear what actualy did happen, so I will not presume anything until the evidence is 100% posetive. I will defidently pray for the entire family.

*Hope I did not mess this up*

[beau99]

For what it's worth, here's some new updates:

http://www.wrestlingobserver.com/wo/news/headlines/default.asp?aID=20024
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WRESTLER_DEAD?SITE=TNCHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-06-27-17-51-25

[dyzzispell]

It seems that Steve Austin's ex-wife has come forward against a court gag order saying that domestic and drug abuse run rampant in the WWE and they do nothing about it...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286924,00.html
I'm sorry, but if God's love has really penetrated to the core of your being, and you truly know Jesus, his Spirit will not let you commit such a crime. The word Christian is thrown around too lightly these days...
I am very sad that this man was so disturbed and it seems no one was able to get through to him, and show him it never had to be this way. I wonder how many others out there are crying out for some real love (God - thought they don't know it's Him they are crying for) and no one answers because they're too afraid of being rejected or coming across as some religious fanatic... We all need to work on our witnessing, may God forgive all of us for that.

[Tommy]

Devout Catholic? Kinda rare to see a Devout Catholic commit suicide.

Not that I'm accusing you specifically of anything, but nothing grinds my gears more than when people think Catholic and Christian are synonyms.

The more I think of it, isn't pro wrestling fake anyways?

[Stephen]

Uh...Catholics are a denomination of Christianity. If you agree with there views or not, is an irrelevant point. And what does wrestling being shoot (fake) fighting have to do with anything on the subject of Benoit killing his family?

That's the thing you don't seem to get: He WASN'T a normal guy.

He definitely wasn't himself when this happened, and there's no doubt in my mind that steroids were not the cause. If it was drugs, he would've done everything in one go, instead of waiting three days.

So you are saying it is out of the realm of possibilty that Benoit was depressed over his sons condition. (Depression is a huge well known side-effect of Steroids) Snapped and made a foolish decision Friday night, killed his wife...struggled with what he did that weekend before killing his son, then himself. You are saying this all has nothing to do with steroids? Blah. I cannot agree with that. To say this tragedy has nothing to do with steroids, only will help more tragedys like this happen in the future. The WWE needs to be under guidelines like Boxing or Mixed Martial Arts. Regular trug tests, etc. I know that won't be popular with Vince McMahon, but it needs to be done. Too many ruined lives, and wasted lives to a sport. Somthing needs to be done about steroids, Vince has had years to fix the problem...and has failed. Thus, someone needs to step in.

[beau99]

The more I think of it, isn't pro wrestling fake anyways?

The matches are scripted, but what the individuals do in said matches are not. I've been on the receiving end of many sharpshooters and crossfaces myself, and from experience only, I'll tell you right now that the moves and holds are as real as can be. They hurt tremendously.

That said, Booker T. has spoken out:

WWE superstar King Booker sat down with KHOU out of Houston, Texas today to talk about the Benoit tragedy. Below are some of the highlights.

Booker said that he knew Benoit personally and as most people in the business that knew Benoit have said, commented that he had never seen a bad side of Benoit. He noted that he knew Benoit’]

Uh...Catholics are a denomination of Christianity. If you agree with there views or not, is an irrelevant point. And what does wrestling being shoot (fake) fighting have to do with anything on the subject of Benoit killing his family?

Um... in wrestling terminology, "shoot" means "real".

You are saying this all has nothing to do with steroids? Blah. I cannot agree with that.

I'm not denying that steroids may have been a factor, but I'm saying that it had absolutely nothing to do with "roid rage". Please do me a favor and quit spinning my words.

[Stephen]

*laughs* Yes I used the wrong term. I was thinking backwards. Too much MMA lately. And please, don't throw a fit. I was not spinning your words. I was responding to your post.

and there's no doubt in my mind that steroids were not the cause

You are saying this all has nothing to do with steroids? Blah. I cannot agree with that.

[beau99]

I meant "immediate cause".

Longterm factor they might have been, but not an immediate cause. All the evidence points against that.

Also, I was hardly throwing a fit.

[Stephen]

I wish he had left a suicide note. I have a bad feeling we may never really know what went down. MSN had an interesting link to a Fox article earlier.

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/6961328?MSNHPHMA

The more info that comes out, the more "stuff" we see that Benoit was dealing with. You mix troubles with your wife, the kid, steroid use, long wrestling trips on the road...you mix that all up...and you are only asking to push a guy to the break.

[Radical Dreamer]

Not that I'm accusing you specifically of anything, but nothing grinds my gears more than when people think Catholic and Christian are synonyms.

...Wow, Tom. You've sure been reading up on your Chick Tracts, huh? Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity, just like Baptists and Methodists. Just because you disagree with them on some things theologically doesn't mean they aren't Christians. If you're going to say that Catholicism and Christianity aren't synonymous, then you'd better say the same about Christianity and Presbyterians or Lutherans, because it's the same. There are Catholics that aren't Christians just like there are Baptists, Methodists, non-denominationals, etc. that aren't Christians. Considering we have a number of Catholic members on this site, I'd consider rethinking my words next time, if I were you.

Anyways. I heard about this the other day. Really sad. I never understood murder suicides, but it's really a sad story.

[Stephen]

Btw Beau. I have been sitting here racking my brain trying to think of what I meant to say rather then shoot. Work. I should have said "working a fight" Not shooting. My bad.

[Tommy]

...Wow, Tom. You've sure been reading up on your Chick Tracts, huh? Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity, just like Baptists and Methodists. Just because you disagree with them on some things theologically doesn't mean they aren't Christians. If you're going to say that Catholicism and Christianity aren't synonymous, then you'd better say the same about Christianity and Presbyterians or Lutherans, because it's the same. There are Catholics that aren't Christians just like there are Baptists, Methodists, non-denominationals, etc. that aren't Christians. Considering we have a number of Catholic members on this site, I'd consider rethinking my words next time, if I were you.

Anyways. I heard about this the other day. Really sad. I never understood murder suicides, but it's really a sad story.

Actually, you completely misunderstood what I meant.

Catholics CAN be Christians obviously.
You can be a Catholic and accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour.

However, what I was trying to say was that just because you're part of the church of Catholicism doesn't mean your automatically a Christian.

To conclude, I've only read one Chick tract.
The one about Rock and Roll.
It was the first tract that I ever laughed at.
However, I'm confident that I wasn't mean to laugh it at.

If you want to continue this discussion then PM me.

Back to Chris Benoit...

[termyt]

I'm sorry, but if God's love has really penetrated to the core of your being, and you truly know Jesus, his Spirit will not let you commit such a crime.

You wouldn't be able to commit such a crime? What kind of crimes will the Spirit allow you to commit? If we can compile a list it will be easier to judge people's worthiness of God's grace.

I think we tread on dangerous ground when we try to say this or that action means a person is or is not saved. I have no idea what Benoit's relationship with God was and, frankly, neither does anyone else here.

While the fruit we bear through our actions is a strong indicator of the condition of our hearts, it is in no way an indication of our worthiness and no man or woman is qualified to judge Benoit. I judge his final actions to be those of either a devil or a lunatic, but I am not so arrogant to say that he could not have been redeemed by the Blood of the Savior.

[dyzzispell]

I judge his final actions to be those of either a devil or a lunatic, but I am not so arrogant to say that he could not have been redeemed by the Blood of the Savior.

I'm confused. How is saying that his actions were those of a devil or lunatic NOT arrogant, but saying he didn't know Jesus is? Is it because you conveniently use the words "his actions" instead of "he"? How can a devil/lunatic really know Jesus? In the Bible, the devils and lunacy left when those people really met Jesus. Darkness cannot dwell where the Light is.

I'm merely figuring out what kind of "tree" he was by his fruit. Yes, I suppose he could've been saved, but it certainly doesn't appear so. That is something between him and God alone. I fully realize that. It just saddens me when it seems that people think that Jesus died for us so that we could go on living any way we please and still go to Heaven.

And if we never "judge" anyone to figure out if they know Jesus or not, then how do we know which ones we need to witness to?

But that is theology not to be discussed here.

[Stephen]

However, what I was trying to say was that just because you're part of the church of Catholicism doesn't mean your automatically a Christian.

Just because you're part of the ______ church, doesn't mean you're automatically a Christian. You can put Baptist, Pentacostal, Methodist, Luthren, Calvary Chaple, etc in that space. As well as Catholic.

[termyt]

Is it because you conveniently use the words "his actions" instead of "he"?

Indeed. I’m a little disappointed that you accuse me of using words out of convenience rather than actually intending to mean what I said. I am qualified to judge a man’s actions. I am not qualified to judge his heart.

You put forth that “if God's love has really penetrated to the core of your being, and you truly know Jesus, his Spirit will not let you commit such a crime.â€

[mitsuki lover]

I think we are getting off track here.The fact of the matter is that Benoit committed two grievous sins,murder and suicide which is self-murder.

[Danderson]

I think we are getting off track here.The fact of the matter is that Benoit committed two grievous sins,murder and suicide which is self-murder.

With that in mind, he still could've been a Christian....

Why do I say that?

Well, remember, that we as human beings are often given many choices that affect what happens in our lives and the lives of others. The most common sets of choices are often trying to choose between right and wrong decisions...That is something that God has given us so that we don't have to be mindless robots...

Remember that even Chrisitians can be tempted to do wrong, but you should also remember that it's their choice to allow sin to cloud their mind or to turn to Jesus...

[Tommy]

Just because you're part of the ______ church, doesn't mean you're automatically a Christian. You can put Baptist, Pentacostal, Methodist, Luthren, Calvary Chaple, etc in that space. As well as Catholic.

It's Calvary Chapel.
That's the name of the church I go to.

I'm glad to see you agree with me.

[Mave]

I rarely watch any wrestling....the only dude in my head that comes in mind would be Hulk Hogan. Eh, whoever this guy was, I'm sorry for what has happened.

I wonder how it is like to live as a wrestler. How is it like to spend your whole life screaming out threats, acting tough, enduring all sorts of painful physical acts and pounding the nuts out of some other tough-looking, threat-yelling big scary dude? Perhaps such a lifestyle promotes certain destructive behavioral patterns most of us never have to worry about. Who knows?

But if it's common for wrestlers to have temper problems that lead to random aggression or problems like drugs and such, it seems like we could pray for them whether they're Christian or not. Never mind whether Christ Benoit was a Christian in the eyes of man, who is he in the eyes of God? Now, that's something we will never know until the end of days but I suppose you could continue speculating on this if you all wanted to. It's just difficult to figure out, you know what I mean?

Until then, I can think of nothing else better to do but to say a quick prayer for those directly inflicted by this tragedy and wishfully hope that this doesn't happen again. Maybe this will cast some light on the personal lives of wrestlers and help us realize that these ppl are not just tools of entertainment but ppl whom God loves and wants us to reach out to.

As for the OT, we've assumed that if you're affliliated to a specific church, you completely abide to every single practice and theology of that church. This is not true. At least, I can speak on my behalf. I've joined charismatic churches for the last few years but I don't necessarily agree with all their ways, which I will refrain from stating here. I also grew up as a Catholic but I've never used the rosary or rarely say Hail Mary (there are other important practices that define Catholicism pls pardon me for using such simple examples). At the risk of sounding weird, I don't even know or care about the 'type' of church I'm currently attending. I'm more concerned with whether an individual is becoming a better person for the service of others or whether they are growing in their relationship with God. So yeah, being part of [insert denomination] doesn't make you a Christian. Your personal relationship with Christ isn't accurately defined by denominations.

[Stephen]

It's Calvary Chapel.
That's the name of the church I go to.

I'm glad to see you agree with me.

Wow, I am glad you contributed somthing to the thread other then correcting a typo of mine. I sure am glad you did not miss the point I was making and act like we were saying the same thing...If you agreed with me, you would not have said...

However, what I was trying to say was that just because you're part of the church of Catholicism doesn't mean your automatically a Christian.

But, you got heat for an ignorant comment...and rather then admit you made a fairly antiCatholic statement...you point out a typo in my post? Wow. I would imagine that you would appreciate people to offer rebuttals to things you say, and not just point out typos. Others expect the same Tom.

In any case, I am done with this thread. I am still very sad by the whole thing. Any time lives are ended short, it's a shame. Many things caused what happend, and I hope that rules and guidelines are changed after this...so future heartache can be avoided. Perhaps the WWE being under some sort of athletic board would help.

[Tommy]

I never made an Anti-Catholic statement.
You just saw it as that.

Call it ignorant.
I don't care.

What I've always thought and what I originally meant: Being a Catholic does not automatically make you a Christian. You CAN be a Catholic and still be a Christian, but just because you're under the teachings of Catholicism that doesn't mean you're automatically heaven-bound.

I was never trying to say anything different.

You may find that comment ignorant, but I don't.

I also don't see how your post was opposite to mine.
All I saw in your posts was more examples.

[mitsuki lover]

This case is getting odder and odder.Now they are saying that someone contributed
a mention of his wife's death to Benoit's Wikiepedia biography BEFORE the police in Georgia even knew about the murders.They say it was traced to Connecticut where the WWE has offices.
Also his personal physician is now under suspicion for giving him steroids or proscribing them.
There's also a bit of a suggestion that there might have been someone else around the premises of the Benoit house when the murders took place,but so far that seems to be a red herring.

[beau99]

This case is getting odder and odder.Now they are saying that someone contributed
a mention of his wife's death to Benoit's Wikiepedia biography BEFORE the police in Georgia even knew about the murders.They say it was traced to Connecticut where the WWE has offices.

Dave Meltzer set the facts straight about this yesterday. Some idiot in the WWE chat room heard the words "family emergency" and decided to fabricate something and attribute it to Meltzer. The other edits the guy have made include disparaging comments about Ron Artest and Torrie Wilson, so it's obvious the guy who did it is just a complete moron.

[mitsuki lover]

Sad that someone would do something like that.

Anyhow,it seems like pro-wrestling is cursed with bad luck every now and again.

I noticed that someone at Theologyweb had a thread up called:
'Vince MacMahon's Dirty Laundry'though how you can blame all the problems with
pro-wrestling on either the WWE or MacMahon is a bit too far fetched.Pro-wrestling seems to always have had problems and always will no matter what happens.

Whatever the truth of Chris Benoit's death and the deaths of his family are,the
truth of the matter is that he was in a very tough and stressful profession and it
took it's toll.

[~IYQ]

I wonder how it is like to live as a wrestler. How is it like to spend your whole life screaming out threats, acting tough, enduring all sorts of painful physical acts and pounding the nuts out of some other tough-looking, threat-yelling big scary dude? Perhaps such a lifestyle promotes certain destructive behavioral patterns most of us never have to worry about. Who knows?

I think the constant traveling and being away from the family for most of the year just multiplies things.

I love wrestling, but I could never, EVER be a wrestler. These guys train hard, both to look good and to be fit enough to actually endure a wrestling match]every single night[/i] to put on wrestling shows for what can be a ridiculously tiny audience. We're talking an audience of less than 20 people on occasion. Many independents probably don't have more than one hundred crowd members, though, if I were to make a guess. Oh yeah, and if they get hurt, they're pretty much screwed unless they work for Vince McMahon, who actually takes care of his troops. If they're lucky-- and it takes both talent AND luck-- they can either work for TNA or WWE. If they make it to the big time, then they get to travel most of the year and have every aspect of their character decided by writers who were but writing soap operas a year prior. What their entrance looks like, their attire, their name, what moves they perform-- everything must fit within McMahon's vision, once filtered through the aforementioned creative writing team who have no idea what makes a good wrestling program.

If you're not good enough to make it to the WWE, you get to travel less if you're in the TNA, but if you get injured...you're screwed, again, just like when you started out. And either way you go, you will have physical aches for the rest of your life and virtually zero respect from most people-- in fact, you'll probably be ridiculed. Why, it's fake, afterall.


I think that's part of it. But I also think pro wrestling just happens to attract people with personal problems.

[mitsuki lover]

The case itself gets,as I said before,more and more bizaare.Now a neighbor of the Benoits has gone missing.

[dyzzispell]

What about lying. Both lying and murder appear in the Ten Commandments. Will the Spirit allow you to lie? If not, are all liars hell-bound? If so, what is grace?

I had a realization the other day and I need to apologize big-time for what I said. You are right, I am sorry. I started thinking and realized, that some of the biggest mistakes I made in my life were after I accepted Christ. Just because you know Christ, doesn't mean you are immune to your human nature and weaknesses. We all make mistakes. At that, God called David "a man after God's own heart" and yet David committed adultery and murder. And a prophet had to point it out to him because apparently he couldn't see it on his own.

So again, I am sorry for all those things I said. I was wrong.

[termyt]

I had a realization the other day and I need to apologize big-time for what I said. You are right, I am sorry. I started thinking and realized, that some of the biggest mistakes I made in my life were after I accepted Christ. Just because you know Christ, doesn't mean you are immune to your human nature and weaknesses. We all make mistakes. At that, God called David "a man after God's own heart" and yet David committed adultery and murder. And a prophet had to point it out to him because apparently he couldn't see it on his own.

I want you to know that at no time did I take any offense to anything said in our discussion. I am glad that your faith and philosophy have been improved. You gain +1 level.