Were The Persians The Real Heroes?

[mitsuki lover]

So I been thinking with all this hubbub about the movie 'The 300' and after also watching the History Channel program 'Last Stand of the 300' after all is said and down weren't,in the final perspective,the Persians the real heroes of the Greco-Persian Wars?
I mean we have had over 3,000 years of being indoctrinated by Greek historians et al that the Persians were the villians.But if you really take history seriously isn't it the other way around?
Here's what I mean:
*The Persians didn't start the Wars,it was the Greeks when the Ionian
Colonies rebelled and later burnt the Persian city of Sardis.
*Darius and later Xerxes invaded Greece for the simple reason that the
Greeks had to be punished for the burning of Sardis.
*Not all Greek City States sided with Athens and Sparta,in fact many of them actually welcomed the Persians.
*The 'They died fighting to perserve democracy'bit is pure hogwash,especially with the Spartans who had a Military Dictatorship.
*(Aside what we know as Democracy actually was developed by the Norse and Germanic and Celtic tribes and so has nothing to do with Greece)
*The only change the Wars brought was to make Athens more tolitarian.
*Alexander invaded Persia.
*Finally from history and reading the OT you can see that over all the Persians were pretty lenient people when it came to others political and religious beliefs,in fact they didn't care what form of government you had or what God(s)you worhsipped as long as you paid your taxes.

[JediSonic]

lol wow.. reality strikes again oh well, still a pretty fun movie

[Puguni]

The winners write the history.

[JediSonic]

what does history have to do with hollywood?

[Technomancer]

So I been thinking with all this hubbub about the movie 'The 300' and after also watching the History Channel program 'Last Stand of the 300' after all is said and down weren't,in the final perspective,the Persians the real heroes of the Greco-Persian Wars?
I mean we have had over 3,000 years of being indoctrinated by Greek historians et al that the Persians were the villians.But if you really take history seriously isn't it the other way around?

Here's what I mean:
*The Persians didn't start the Wars,it was the Greeks when the Ionian
Colonies rebelled and later burnt the Persian city of Sardis.

True, but they would have been considered fellow Greeks struggling under a government that had been imposed on them by force of arms. The Greeks did after all place a high value on their own regional indenpendence.

*Darius and later Xerxes invaded Greece for the simple reason that the
Greeks had to be punished for the burning of Sardis.

True of Darius to an extent, although one might easily question whether he would have chosen to withdraw after defeating the Greeks. In Xerxes' case, the objective was plainly the outright conquest of Greece.

*Not all Greek City States sided with Athens and Sparta,in fact many of them actually welcomed the Persians.

The cities in northern Greece did favour the Persians because they resented the dominance of the cities of southern Greece.

*The 'They died fighting to perserve democracy'bit is pure hogwash,especially with the Spartans who had a Military Dictatorship.

Sort of. The Spartans did have hereditary monarchs (as did the Persians), however the gerousia (council of elders) was elected by the citizens of Sparta.

*(Aside what we know as Democracy actually was developed by the Norse and Germanic and Celtic tribes and so has nothing to do with Greece)

One can fairly say that the Greeks did value freedom, albeit in a more locally defined way. The idea that rule was local in nature, depending on the civic life of the country, and on the individual citizen's involvement in that life was an idea that was not mirrored anywhere else in the rest of the civilized world at that time. Was Greek democracy unequal and restrictive? Yes, but it was still a democracy, and it still nurtured the humanist values that have illuminated the whole of western history.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Nevermind that Alexander went in to Persia later... And I wouldn't technically call him Greek. He came from a region just north of both Greece and Persia, but he defeinitly had a hellenistic bent.

[Yeshua-Knight]

So I been thinking with all this hubbub about the movie 'The 300' and after also watching the History Channel program 'Last Stand of the 300' after all is said and down weren't,in the final perspective,the Persians the real heroes of the Greco-Persian Wars?
I mean we have had over 3,000 years of being indoctrinated by Greek historians et al that the Persians were the villians.But if you really take history seriously isn't it the other way around?
Here's what I mean:
*The Persians didn't start the Wars,it was the Greeks when the Ionian
Colonies rebelled and later burnt the Persian city of Sardis.
*Darius and later Xerxes invaded Greece for the simple reason that the
Greeks had to be punished for the burning of Sardis.
*Not all Greek City States sided with Athens and Sparta,in fact many of them actually welcomed the Persians.
*The 'They died fighting to perserve democracy'bit is pure hogwash,especially with the Spartans who had a Military Dictatorship.
*(Aside what we know as Democracy actually was developed by the Norse and Germanic and Celtic tribes and so has nothing to do with Greece)
*The only change the Wars brought was to make Athens more tolitarian.
*Alexander invaded Persia.
*Finally from history and reading the OT you can see that over all the Persians were pretty lenient people when it came to others political and religious beliefs,in fact they didn't care what form of government you had or what God(s)you worhsipped as long as you paid your taxes.

1) let us not forget that at that time persia was quite a sizeable empire, occupying much of the middle east

2) since when did revenge equal heroics? especially since persia had already conquered a part of greece by the time this battle took place

3) since when did popularity equal heroicism? just wondering

4) in reference to sparta this is quite true, not to mention the fact that athens was in reality just run by their aristocracy, so yeah, i'll give you that one

5) so when people say that our government is based off of the roman government, they're all wrong, (example: 500 member senate, triumvirate, consuls, etc.)

6) Alexander was a Macedonian, schooled by Greek philosophers, and as i recall the helenistic age was pretty lenient as well, even to the point where alexander prefered his soldiers to intermary with the peoples they had conquered

7) this is, for the most part, true, however there were also a couple of occassions when the persians were not so lenient, remember daniel in the lion's den? and what of daniel's buddies shadrach, meshach, and abednego who were thrown into the flaming furnace?

anyways, here's my two cents, perhaps if we collect enough of 'em we can buy a soda or something, i dunno

edit: let me be clear, i'm not saying that the spartans and other greeks were heroes, their whole mentality concerning the upbringing of their children and their lifestyle, not to mention government, i do strongly disagree with, on the other hand they took courage in the face of unbeatable odds and stood their ground in the hopes that others would arise and take up the fight when they had passed and perhaps one day defeat the invading force, and this, in my opinion, should be admired about them

[mitsuki lover]

I am at a loss why this was moved from General to General Entertainment as my entire purpose was to have a thread talking about the actual history of the Greco-Persian Wars from the possible perspective that the Persians may have actually have been in the right.I used the movie simply as a catalyst to get things moving
and would like to see it moved back to General for a serious conversation.
I don't think people will take it serious if they see it under Entertainment.

[termyt]

I, personally, would be hesitant to assign good guys/bad guys to the participants of the Greco-Persian Wars. It really isn't all the simple.

The Romans had a romantic view of Greek culture and the Greeks republican system is the basis for our own, so we more naturally inclined to favor the Greeks over the Persians. Not to mention, Alexander had the last laugh and history generally favors the victors, so Greek history has a one-up on the Persians.

None of that has as much to do with our favoring the Greeks in this story as the simple fact that we love underdogs. The thought of a few brave souls fighting for a noble, yet doomed cause is just the sort of thing that makes our emotions purr like the kittens in Ingemar's Kitten War.

None of that makes either side right or wrong. They both were world powers who subjugated their weaker neighbors. Both brought not only stability but a reasonably fair form of justice to those under their control. At the end of the day, the battles were just another in the string of endless conflict that makes us who we are today.

[Kaligraphic]

Actually, the Greeks held the numerical advantage at Thermopylae. The Persian advantage was that they were better soldiers. It's still a laudable accomplishment, but not in the way that Herodotus et al. would have us think.

Really, though, Thermopylae was intended as a delaying action to allow time for the Greek fleet to gain superiority at Artemisium, which would have forced the Persians to withdraw.

(Yes, excessive study of classical military history ruined that movie for me. Well, that and the writing.)

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I'm not entirely sure what everyone had against the writing. I found absolutely nothing wrong with it.

[The Doctor]

Well Mitsuki, I'll say this: you are SO right when you disspelled the myth about Greece spawning democracy.

I studied Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle and I've come to the conclusion that it wasn't democracy that was born in Greece, but communism and all the other forms it has.

[termyt]

I’m sure I have note studied the Greek philosophers as much as The Doctor has, but I was under the impression that they reasoned more on the nature of man and his place in the universe than on the system he choose to be governed by.