Christians Aginst Anime Bootlegging

Postby **Vyse** » Mon May 03, 2004 9:03 pm

Hey all, I decided to start a little group here, as some of you know I'm strongly against bootlegs, lots and lots of people are decived into buying these, licenced in the US or not, I belive they are wrong because they take away money from the people who made/dubbed the anime. Please only post here if you are NOT for bootlegging, I do no want to turn this into a debate.

Basically I just want to know who else is against bootlegging, and might be willing to help educate people about bootlegs ^_^

Postby **Arbre** » Mon May 03, 2004 9:15 pm

I agree with you on your position against bootleg anime and similar products, and I know that it's difficult to know sometimes how to not purchase it even if you're trying to avoid it.

I don't know enough to educate people about it, though. I enjoy anime, but I don't own any; all I watch is what airs on TV or my friends invite me over to see.

Postby **ShiroiHikari** » Mon May 03, 2004 9:45 pm

Bootlegs annoy me, because the wrong people are getting paid.

I've bought some bootlegs, because I didn't know any better. Only recently did I find out that my CDs are bootlegs ; ___ ; DO NOT buy anime soundtracks that say:

Â· Ever Anime
Â· Sonmay
Â· Made in Taiwan

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp is worth a shot because it's imported from Japan, not bootlegged. The only thing is, since it's imported, it's gonna cost you a little more.

My local comic shop is still selling the bootlegs, and pretty soon I'm gonna talk to my "contact" there about it to see if it can be stopped.

Postby **Vyse** » Mon May 03, 2004 10:15 pm

Aye, I had that happen to me too, I quickly got rid of them when I found out. It just kinda makes me mad that I'll spend 15-25 per anime DVD on a legit release, then people buy the whole series for 45 illegally, its not right, ESPICALLY since some of the people who buy anime legitly like me are tight on money, and its not just that, I also feel its very disrepectful to the people who made the anime, and as you said SH, the money goes towards the wrong people.

Postby **bigsleepj** » Mon May 03, 2004 11:35 pm

No.1 Reason NOT to buy Bootleg DVDs:

It's funds terrorism. :sniffle:

Bootleg DVDs are incredibly popular in South Africa because real DVDs are so incredibly expensive here. Go to a flea-market and find three or four places that sell these bootleg DVDs. Some of the owners of these flea-markets (a) either don't care that it's bootleg or (b) don't know. The same with the buyers. It's either deliberate or ignorance.

Anime is especially popular in bootleg because it's so hard to find here. Only a few anime titles are available on DVD here legally; Cowboy Bebop the Movie, Metropolis and Spirited Away, and a lot of DragonBall Z 'movies' (TV series, actually). Other than that to find a title produced here is impossible. The imports of anime from the UK are expensive; their prices tend to double here. So for fans bootlegs are the only option...which is still wrong.

To my eternal shame I own a bootleg DVD version of "The Castle of Cagliostro". It was an expertly produced DVD; usually I can spot bootlegs in a heartbeat, but this one (from Hong Kong) had even had silver lettering on the DVD itself so I was fooled. I saw an import of the real version and I really should buy it and burn "Cagliostro" bootleg. That's all such DVDs are good for; firewood! :bang:

It's especially hard on my conscious because I despise pirate DVDs so I'll have to upgrade to the legal.

Even worse about this bootleg anime is that I bought it from a shop that also sells manga and such (not bootleg manga, though). It all looks so legal and pirate DVDs are against the law. The quality is even good on these discs. People are buying and they don't know they are. :mutter:

Postby **shooraijin** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:22 am

> The only thing is, since it's imported, it's gonna cost you a little more.

But -- it's worth pointing out -- not much more than buying the import from a domestic company like Amazon, and in some cases, it's actually less, even with the shipping factored in. I buy all my Japanese imports from cdjapan.co.jp now (I just collapse them into a big huge order so that I can save on shipping).

Postby **bigsleepj** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:38 am

shooraijin wrote:(I just collapse them into a big huge order so that I can save on shipping).

I praise you for your practicality. If the shipping rates are good then it's cheaper to buy online. But because it's a niche market here sellers just double the prices of the legal versions to take advantage of it. Not everyone likes ordering online because they just don't trust the Internet here.

I'll have to check out that website to see what it has has. Thank you.

Postby **Mave** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:57 am

I'm among the individuals who need to be educated about it. All my CDs are by Sonmay, EverAnime, and I always thought they were legal. >_<;;;;;; Well, it looked way more legal than those illegal MP3 CD sellers on the sidestreets.

Most of my manga are from Taiwan too. I wonder whether they're bootlegs too. >_<;;;;;; (urgh, now I feel bad) I sincerely thought Japanese companies sold rights to these Taiwanese companies. No wonder the manga were so cheap (~USD$1 per volume)!!

If so, then there is a very sad situation in my country, for bootlegs are the most common and accessible source of anime and manga. It's everywhere and you can't really escape it unless you buy online or via one of those very obscure Japanese bookstores.

Postby **shooraijin** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:00 am

Basically, the situation in Taiwan is like this: Taiwan didn't sign off on the international copyright laws that currently are in force, so they're pretty much legally free to do whatever they want -- *in* *Taiwan*. The minute those CDs or DVDs leave the island, they're subject to the copyright laws of whatever country they enter, which in practical terms means they're illegal just about everywhere else.

Alas, Mave is also right insofar as a lot of titles are out of print by their original manufacturer, but the Taiwanese distributors still manufacture them. I think there's a little more moral ground for that sort of practise, although it's still illegal.

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:04 am

Alas, Mave is also right insofar as a lot of titles are out of print by their original manufacturer, but the Taiwanese distributors still manufacture them. I think there's a little more moral ground for that sort of practise, although it's still illegal.

I personally think its still immoral though... I'd personally like to see a lot more of the domestic compaines in the US step up and provide soundtracks for the anime series that they release.

Postby **shooraijin** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:05 am

> I'd personally like to see a lot more of the domestic compaines in the US step up and provide soundtracks for the anime series that they release.

Obviously, that would most certainly be the best solution all around.

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:30 am

Not just anime companies, but game companies as well... The vocal-songs-only soundtrack for Silent Hill 3 doesn't cut it. Every game needs a domestic release of a soundtrack if it has a soundtrack mildly worth listening to.

BTW, on the Index page, all I can see on there is "Christians Against Anime"

I freaked out the first time I saw it...

Postby **bigsleepj** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:40 am

Bobtheduck wrote:BTW, on the Index page, all I can see on there is "Christians Against Anime"

I freaked out the first time I saw it...

I also thought that it was a Anti-CAA website that was attempting to attack us and that was under discussion. Off course, you get people who would be against anime mostly because of the sex and violence but also the fantasy elements just like you get people who are against the Narnian Chronicles and The Lord of the Rings. Has there ever been anyone here that called all anime-watchers sinners? I hope not.

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:02 am

Not just anime companies, but game companies as well...

Total Agreement there, I really would like a COMPLETE FF9 soundtrack, not the one disc version that we got, as well as a Skies of Arcadia soundtrack and countless others.

BTW, on the Index page, all I can see on there is "Christians Against Anime"

LOL!!!! I noticed that too, if anything it draws people in I guess

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:05 am

shooraijin wrote:Obviously, that would most certainly be the best solution all around.

Aye, the price and easy avaiblity alone would eaisly stop any arguments for buying bootlegs, I also wouldn't mind more soundtrack+DVD combos like with .Hack//Sign.

Postby **Stephen** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:15 am

As long as your stance on copyright laws are as strong on everything thats cool. No talking about sport games results (watch the end of an NFL game somtime) Also don't tape stuff off the radio or tv...and of course none of those darn mp3s...If one is going to claim purity on one part of copyright laws...let them stand firm on all of them.

Postby **bigsleepj** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:19 am

[quote="Vyse"]LOL!!!! I noticed that too, if anything it draws people in I guess ]

True, true, it brought me in. :lol:

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:35 am

Shatterheart wrote:As long as your stance on copyright laws are as strong on everything thats cool. No talking about sport games results (watch the end of an NFL game somtime) Also don't tape stuff off the radio or tv...and of course none of those darn mp3s...If one is going to claim purity on one part of copyright laws...let them stand firm on all of them.

I do none of the above actually O_o

But also, criminal orginizations don't benfit from none of the things you mentioned above, but they do benfit from bootlegs, hurt the company that makes it(except for sports scores) maybe, but not benfit criminals. Not saying they are moral though.

Postby **Gypsy** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:42 am

While I very much agree with buying legit stuff, I'd like to just state the difference between buying/downloading a fansub and buying a bootleg.

Example:

Buying the entire Trigun series for $25.00 = Bootleg.

Buying Scrapped Princess series = Fansub.

It's all a matter of licensing. Personally, I love checking out fansubs of anime that hasn't been released in the US. It's also starting to sway my dubbed vs subbed preferences :sweat:

.

My personal take: I think that if you own a fansub of a series that was licensed after you purchased the fansub, you should probably buy the licensed version, or get rid of your fansubs, because they've become what is considered illegal duplications.

I bought a ton of Ever Anime soundtracks from gkworld before I knew they were bootlegs. Oops. No wonder the sound quality was B-grade. Buying the real deal may be expensive, but you're almost always getting what you paid for. Real prices means real, professional quality.

Postby **Stephen** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:55 am

"But also, criminal orginizations don't benfit from none of the things you mentioned above, but they do benfit from bootlegs, hurt the company that makes it(except for sports scores) maybe, but not benfit criminals. Not saying they are moral though."

I think they used the same propaganda with drugs..."every time you buy a joint at your local highschool your supporting Osama!" Its fine to be against somthing, but don't help spread lies about it to help your cause. I think its perfectly fine to feel how you do...and I have nothing against that. But use logic when you present your opinion. I figure the next thing down the line will be, "Everytime you download a fansub, God kills a kitten".

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:00 am

Gypsy wrote: It's all a matter of licensing. Personally, I love checking out fansubs of anime that hasn't been released in the US. It's also starting to sway my dubbed vs subbed preferences .
.

Well I really didn't want to address the fansub issue, but even if a series hasn't been licenced locally, it is possible for international copyrights to be vaild in the US.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl100.html

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:02 am

Shatterheart wrote:
I think they used the same propaganda with drugs..."every time you buy a joint at your local highschool your supporting Osama!" Its fine to be against somthing, but don't help spread lies about it to help your cause. I think its perfectly fine to feel how you do...and I have nothing against that. But use logic when you present your opinion. I figure the next thing down the line will be, "Everytime you download a fansub, God kills a kitten".

People are making money off of an illegaly coppied product, thats a criminal action, where is the lie there?

Postby **Stephen** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:12 am

1.Double posting is annoying...use the edit feature to add things into the post rather then make two.

2. For someone that claimed they did not want to debate, you sure seem to love argueing. If people cannot post there opinions without facing the wrath of Vyse, perhaps you should not have started such a controversial topic. Had you read my post clearly, my point about Propaganda were lines like this from this thread.

"It's funds terrorism"

You don't like bootleggs? Thats cool. You want to warn others? Nice of you. Your gonna spread mistruths to help your cause....I belive that would fall under two wrongs do not make a right. As for your responce, you don't think people make money off mp3s? There are entire companys that sell bootlegg cds...just like anime. There are also sports sites that broadcast game results illegaly for money....piracy is the same. To say that anime piracy is worse then others is silly. Again, I repeat. "But use logic when you present your opinion"

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:21 am

1.Double posting is annoying...use the edit feature to add things into the post rather then make 2.

I'll keep that in mind, its just hard to copy text to quote without having mutuple windows open.

2. For someone that claimed they did not want to debate, you sure seem to love argueing. If people cannot post there opinions without facing the wrath of Vyse, perhaps you should not have started such a controversial topic. Had you read my post clearly, my point about Propaganda were lines like this from this thread.

Since you quoted my post I replied to that, and what wrath? I wasn't flaming(ie I wasn't saying "you are bad if you buy bootlegs!), or am I not allowed to post what I know about the subject? Yes, and as I said, I did not want a debate, but if I see something I don't agree with or that I know is wrong should I just ignore it? And as I said, the intent was to educate people about bootlegs, I made that very clear in my opening post.

"It's funds terrorism"

You do realize that I wasn't the one that said that right? I never claimed to know what they use the money for, I just know that the way of making the money isn't leagal. I'd apprecaite you address the person who said it instead of posting that as a reply to something that I said, because if feels like I'm being accused of saying it.

. As for your responce, you don't think people make money off mp3s? There are entire companys that sell bootlegg cds...just like anime. There are also sports sites that broadcast game results illegaly for money....piracy is the same. To say that anime piracy is worse then others is silly. Again, I repeat. "But use logic when you present your opinion"

I never said that any form of piracy was moral. I said all forms of piracry were wrong, and if I had known more about other forms of privacry, I wouldn't have said that people don't make money off of them, thank you for correcting me there, that only strengthens my stance against piracy.

Postby **Gypsy** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:24 am

Vyse wrote:Well I really didn't want to address the fansub issue, but even if a series hasn't been licensed locally, it is possible for international copyrights to be valid in the US.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl100.html

"Possible" yes, but I've read these particular restrictions do not apply in this case. Fansubs, believe it or not, are the foundation of the anime industry in the US. Series do not become popular by just "appearing" dubbed. The exporting of fansubs, or official dvd versions with English subtitles is one of the ways anime thrives outside of Japan. To make it illegal would be a proverbial shooting of the foot. Legal sites that offer anime fansubs and manga scanlations cover know their laws. I'm not claiming to have every copyright law memorized, but as far as I understand, having an unlicensed fansub is not, in itself, illegal. But again, this is my personal take.

Postby **Stephen** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:30 am

You were not being accused of saying anything...so don't be so thinskinned. I simply posted on this topic some very true statements...statements that you did not like.

"As long as your stance on copyright laws are as strong on everything thats cool. No talking about sport games results (watch the end of an NFL game somtime) Also don't tape stuff off the radio or tv...and of course none of those darn mp3s...If one is going to claim purity on one part of copyright laws...let them stand firm on all of them."

"I think they used the same propaganda with drugs..."every time you buy a joint at your local highschool your supporting Osama!" Its fine to be against somthing, but don't help spread lies about it to help your cause. I think its perfectly fine to feel how you do...and I have nothing against that. But use logic when you present your opinion. I figure the next thing down the line will be, "Everytime you download a fansub, God kills a kitten"."

Now rather then accept these true statements, you decided to push on the issues.

"I did not want a debate, but if I see something I don't agree with or that I know is wrong should I just ignore it?" How you present your rebuttal decides that. Your responce to Gypsy was simply your inability to let somthing go without taking a shot at it. You get more flys with honey then vinegar. If you want to warn others about bootleggs do it with a cool head. And correct people when they say blatently wrong things. Such as the terrorism comment. I notice you failed to respond to that post.

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:32 am

"Possible" yes, but I've read these particular restrictions do not apply in this case.

Could you show me where it says that? I'm very interested to see that.

Fansubs, believe it or not, are the foundation of the anime industry in the US. Series do not become popular by just "appearing" dubbed. The exporting of fansubs, or official dvd versions with English subtitles is one of the ways anime thrives outside of Japan.

Oh I have no doubts that fansuns make series popular enough in the US to be "offically" released, but even knowing that I'm not saying its right either.

To make it illegal would be a proverbial shooting of the foot. Legal sites that offer anime fansubs and manga scanlations cover know their laws.

Its not making it illeagal since it is, anime disturbutors don't persucrte fansubbers(of anime that hasn't been released) because as you said, its a way to find out what anime will sell, that doesn't mean its legal either, just "ignored", not saying it makes it moral though, I mean there is a way to legally watch anime that hasn't been released in the US, buy the DVDs from Japan and learn Japenese, I realize thats not pratical, but it would be moral.

Postby **bigsleepj** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:33 am

Shatterheart wrote:"It's funds terrorism"

You don't like bootleggs? Thats cool. You want to warn others? Nice of you. Your gonna spread mistruths to help your cause....I belive that would fall under two wrongs do not make a right. As for your responce, you don't think people make money off mp3s? There are entire companys that sell bootlegg cds...just like anime. There are also sports sites that broadcast game results illegaly for money....piracy is the same. To say that anime piracy is worse then others is silly. Again, I repeat. "But use logic when you present your opinion"

Hmmm. I'll have to double check my source on that one, again. If it's not true, then I'm sorry for posting a lie I thought was the truth. I'll have to double-check my facts in the future.

Postby **Vyse** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:41 am

Shatterheart wrote:You were not being accused of saying anything...so don't be so thinskinned. I simply posted on this topic some very true statements...statements that you did not like.

Statements that I thanked you for?

"As long as your stance on copyright laws are as strong on everything thats cool. No talking about sport games results (watch the end of an NFL game somtime) Also don't tape stuff off the radio or tv...and of course none of those darn mp3s...If one is going to claim purity on one part of copyright laws...let them stand firm on all of them."

Now rather then accept these true statements, you decided to push on the issues.

Umm... I DID accept those, as I said, I wasn't the one that said the terrorism comment.

"I did not want a debate, but if I see something I don't agree with or that I know is wrong should I just ignore it?" How you present your rebuttal decides that.

Considering I said I didn't want an arguement to rebuttle to...

Your responce to Gypsy was simply your inability to let somthing go without taking a shot at it. You get more flys with honey then vinegar.

Doesn't that work the other way around too?

If you want to warn others about bootleggs do it with a cool head. And correct people when they say blatently wrong things.Such as the terrorism comment. I notice you failed to respond to that post.

I didn't respond because I don't know if it was right or wrong, as I said, I don't know what they use the money for, it could be terrorism, I don't know. If I did know for a fact they were not used to fun terrorism, then I would've come out and say it.

Postby **Stephen** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:47 am

"Statements that I thanked you for?"

Doesent that edit feature work nicely? (nice of you to change your post while people are responding to it) Anyway I have to go to work...I really have no desire to banter back and forth with you consider you refuse to take any advise. So go get a tattoo or somthing. FANSUBS ARE THE DEVIL. I got milk to put up.

Christians Aginst Anime Bootlegging

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