Mac Mini

[Arnobius]

Frankly, I only see Apple's future as bright. We have the corner on music players (iPods), make wicked servers (Xserve) and hopefully the cheap Mini will get use a bigger foot in the home market.

I don't have an issue with Macs in general, I just don't use them.

As for iPods, I have a strong hostility for them. Overpriced and less versatile than other players. Now if they were to allow the iPod to play WMA format and allow their AAC format to play in WMP, I'd consider buying it. Since they don't, my use of iTunes is limited to buying music and ripping them to CD (even though the result is less than impressive than some other codecs). As a player for the computer, it is less convenient than WMP10. Also iTunes is rather intrusive, forcing their way into being the default player (even when you click "no") for audio and video files, requiring manually changing it.

If Bill Gates made WMP behave the way iTunes does, he'd probably have been lynched by now.

[Sam*ron]

Those things look awesome, but I can see why they might be a little problem. But, still they are cool, it would be fun to try one out. ^^

[Tycho]

If Bill Gates made WMP behave the way iTunes does, he'd probably have been lynched by now.

Instead, he made WMV3, whose DRM evilness prevents everyone but Windows users from playing the file.

To Volt, ok I see where your'e coming from. Perhaps I jumped a bit too soon. I can't help it. I'm passionate, like all us Greeks.

<punch cat>

[blkmage]

I never liked WMA.

[shooraijin]

And I'll chip in to say I'm one of those Mac owners who despises iTunes. I just don't like it and since I buy all my music on CD, there's really no need for me to use it. I wrote my own music player, or I'll use MacAmp X.

(If I need portable music, I'll burn a CD, or rarely, I'll load it on my Zire 72.)

[Tycho]

So much iTunes hating going on... Don't worry iTunes, I still luv you.

shooraijin, is your player just a CD player or does it do music files? Anyway, thats pretty cool. I wish I could get my software projects into some state of finishedness. Stupid World of Warcraft....

[Arnobius]

Instead, he made WMV3, whose DRM evilness prevents everyone but Windows users from playing the file. <punch cat>

OK, I didn't just walk into that one... I ran
Of course I haven't had much trouble converting wmv to mpeg. Is that doable with .mov?

[shooraijin]

Yes, you can turn QuickTime movies into either MPEG-1, -2 or -4. MPEG-4 is native with QT6; you can get MPEG-1/2 encoders for a little extra green.

Tycho, my player just does music files. I threw it together in FutureBASIC in about 10 minutes, but it works.

[Tycho]

OK, I didn't just walk into that one... I ran
Of course I haven't had much trouble converting wmv to mpeg. Is that doable with .mov?

I had to get you back my romanji goof. Honor is satisfied.

If MS would just keep WMP for the mac up to date, I would agree that its a good player.

[Fsiphskilm]

iTun

[Arnobius]

iTunes, ug. don't get me started.

I installed iTunes, set up an account, downloaded 1 song and then uninstalled iTunes.

I will never use iTunes again. How annoying. It's a lot better than a lot of other music stores but FORCES iTunes files to only be played in iTunes.

I'm going to hold back my opinion on the iPod. But lets just say, I feel like I'm the only one in the world that thinks iPod is just... arggg an annoying little bar of soap.

Too true. Their (iTunes) AAC format sounds awful when turned to CD and worse when copied to CD then converted to another format. I'm probably a freak for saying so, but I tend to favor the WMA Lossless codec (and with a 250gb hard drive, it will be a while before I need to worry about space), since it seems to sound better than the mp3 at 320mhz level compression.

If MS would just keep WMP for the mac up to date, I would agree that its a good player.

I didn't even know you could get wmp for Mac.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

iTunes, ug. don't get me started.

I installed iTunes, set up an account, downloaded 1 song and then uninstalled iTunes.

I will never use iTunes again. How annoying. It's a lot better than a lot of other music stores but FORCES iTunes files to only be played in iTunes.

I'm going to hold back my opinion on the iPod. But lets just say, I feel like I'm the only one in the world that thinks iPod is just... arggg an annoying little bar of soap.

um... you dont have to play mp3s on itunes... and you can always convert aac files into mp3s if you want to

[Arnobius]

um... you dont have to play mp3s on itunes... and you can always convert aac files into mp3s if you want to

Yeah, by burning to cd and then ripping to disc. Sounds rather flat after doing that. I think AAC is an inferior format. Maybe OK for quick downloads, but not much else. Slightly worse than 128kbps mp3.

[shooraijin]

I prefer Apple Lossless anyway, or straight .aiff. In fact, most of my audio rips are simply uncompressed .aiff, directly from the CD's PCM.

Yes, you can get WMP9 for the Mac. It does not support all the codecs, however, so for a lot of my streams I have to use VLC instead. However, WMP9Mac does support streaming, so many .wmv/.asf files do play.

[Arnobius]

I prefer Apple Lossless anyway, or straight .aiff. In fact, most of my audio rips are simply uncompressed .aiff, directly from the CD's PCM.

Yes, you can get WMP9 for the Mac. It does not support all the codecs, however, so for a lot of my streams I have to use VLC instead. However, WMP9Mac does support streaming, so many .wmv/.asf files do play.

I experimented with Apple Lossless and it wasn't bad. Too bad you can't opt to download songs in that format instead of AAC. However, since I find wmp more versatile for my needs, I just find it easier not to deal with conversions to iTunes.

[glitch1501]

my old rio mp3 player doesnt read lossless, good think i got the zen touch now...wait...shouldnt be saying that in an apple thread lol...

[Tycho]

Yes, you can get WMP9 for the Mac. It does not support all the codecs,

Unfortunately, the codecs it doesn't support the the ones most WMV content is being published in. If they'd just release the codec so VLC could run it (or WMP9 for the mac even), I'd be as happy as a clam.... at least a happy clam.

however, so for a lot of my streams I have to use VLC instead.

VLC is the one of the greatest players ever. The true example of how good non-proprietary players are.

[Fsiphskilm]

With

[shooraijin]

I don't know, I don't like .mp3 much. Any kind of lossless sound compression I can usually hear the drop outs, since I'm very used to totally uncompressed sound. Granted, it's an archiving problem, but I only image the CDs I know are (just about) irreplaceable, such as my Japanese imports, mix CDs others have made for me, and used/out of print titles.

[shooraijin]

Okay, le double post, le slap moi wrists, n'e pas?

Getting back on topic, here is an admittedly pro-Mac mini article ... http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2005/01/miniapplesandoranges/index.php ... but one that I think makes multiple good points about where the mini is priced. It even spots the low-end Dell a handicap by taking away the cost of the monitor and keyboard/mouse it comes with, based on Dell's own valuation (a $45 monitor ... hmm).

By the way, Dell is asking for it by pooh-poohing the mini, so I don't think this is hitting below the belt

So, without further ado, some of the highlights from low-end Mac vs. low-end Dell:

- The low-end Dell has shared video memory. Ouch. In fact, up to a 64MB hit.
- The Celeron in the Dell -- and in fact in most low-cost PCs -- lacks an L2 cache of any kind.
- The low-end Dell is limited to 512MB (?!).
- The Dell only has XP Home, not XP Pro. I would imagine most systems in this price range also have just XP Home. I think most XP users here will agree that XP Home is pretty crummy compared to XP Pro (I'm not even talking XP vs OS X, just XP against itself!).

Some of the concerns are a little specious, like FireWire not being a BTO option for the Dell -- getting a PCI card to do that isn't THAT hard -- and yes, you would have to get a third-party DVD/CD burner since Dell offers no BTO option for that, but that's no hardship either. Both of them add costs, though, that the mini has out of the box (even the base mini can burn CDs, at least). And, I do think that the mini does have a minus in having no PCI slots at all -- even just one slot would have been something, although most of the stuff we use PCI cards for is already on the board (video, FW, USB, Ethernet, modem).

I still maintain, and agree with the article, that the mini really cleans the Dell's clock w/r/t software.

The obvious counter to this is that one could do better buying one's own components, but I'd like to see those numbers. You need a motherboard, you need a case, you need a power supply, you need a CPU (even if just a crummy one), you need Ethernet, you need USB 2.0, you need FW400, you need a Radeon 9200 of comparable spec (in this case, AGP4x with 32MB VRAM with DVI), you need 256MB RAM, you need a CD-RW/DVD-R drive, you need a 40GB drive and finally you need some sort of sound card. Also add in the cost of XP, DVD burning software, some sort of light-grade video editor, word processor, music jukebox and music synthesis software, and keep in mind that the machine is only warranted to individual components, assuming you buy them new. I suspect the Dell has that beat for aggregate cost, let alone the mini.

I really am seriously interested in someone taking the article apart, though. Other than the things I noticed, what else rings wrong on the other side of the fence?

[Arnobius]

[quote="shooraijin"]Okay, le double post, le slap moi wrists, n'e pas?

Getting back on topic, here is an admittedly pro-Mac mini article ... http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2005/01/miniapplesandoranges/index.php ... but one that I think makes multiple good points about where the mini is priced. It even spots the low-end Dell a handicap by taking away the cost of the monitor and keyboard/mouse it comes with, based on Dell's own valuation (a $45 monitor ... hmm).

By the way, Dell is asking for it by pooh-poohing the mini, so I don't think this is hitting below the belt ]
Well, I prefer the PC, but wouldn't own a Dell. For the prices they charge, you can get better elsewhere. Nowadays with the "make your own" option in many stores, you can do pretty good. That's what I did with my current monster. I would never again accept integrated graphics, would never own a celeron (or a Semperon from AMD). I think the basic Dell is just for a company to get their people some cheap computers, so the things I'd consider a necessity (256mb graphic card, DVD burner, etc) is a luxury there.

Home wasn't *too* bad. But when I got my new computer, I went with Pro because MS will quit supporting Home in 2006. FYI, most computers come with Home. Pro is an option.

EDIT: OK, one thing I notice is when they're talking up the fact that you can request some changed specs when ordering the Mac mini is that they overlook you have the same ability with Dell. So the article would next need to see how much it would cost to upgrade.

Either way, I wouldn't want anything to do with either...

[shooraijin]

Pro most definitely is an option on most PCs, I agree, and most home systems only come with Home. On the other hand, every Mac comes with the full version of OS X -- no "Home" and "Pro". Your next step would be all the way to OS X Server, which would be like jumping to Windows Server 2003 in terms of market.

EDIT: Which changed specs, specifically? I ask this question seriously

[Arnobius]

Pro most definitely is an option on most PCs, I agree, and most home systems only come with Home. On the other hand, every Mac comes with the full version of OS X -- no "Home" and "Pro". Your next step would be all the way to OS X Server, which would be like jumping to Windows Server 2003 in terms of market.

I guess this would require another apple/orange comparison, to ask whether OSX comes closer to XP Home or Pro with features. For me, Pro has three advantages over home that justified the extra $75 I paid for mine:

1. Encryption
2. ASR Backup
3. Ability to change default non-Unicode language on the fly. Useful when trying to install JP language games

.
These mattered forme with the Home/Pro switch. Since I know almost nothing about OSX, I really don't know whether it is better or lacks in comparison.

EDIT (In response to edit (trying not to dbl post):
Article was mentioning the lack of the Dell features and saying that the Mac Mini could have the things it lacked built in with a special request. I just thought that this was unfair, since you can make special requests from Dell too. That was the one negative thing I felt about the article.

[shooraijin]

I think it would be an apples-oranges comparison, since so much of that would depend on user experience (which is subjective primarily). The point I was making is that Apple gives the mini the same version of OS X it sells on the bigger-ticket Power Macs (with the exception, of course, of the Xserves, but those are intended as servers and not desktops; hence, OS X Server).

What was the spec comparison that you said the site didn't cover? Even granting that the site paid short shrift to the BTO options for the Dell -- and I imagine it probably did -- the total cost still goes up.

Granted, I wouldn't buy the Dell either, even if I were in the market for a PC I use a Dell Dimension business desktop -- in fact, the very machine I'm typing this on (I'm at work) -- and I can't stand them. I imagine this piece of junk is very similarly configured to the Dimension 2400.

[Arnobius]

[quote="shooraijin"]I think it would be an apples-oranges comparison, since so much of that would depend on user experience (which is subjective primarily). The point I was making is that Apple gives the mini the same version of OS X it sells on the bigger-ticket Power Macs (with the exception, of course, of the Xserves, but those are intended as servers and not desktops]
This is what struck me:
[Quote=article from website]And then there are the intangibles the Mac mini has in its favor: No viruses; no spyware; easier setup of peripherals; a much smaller, more attractive, and quieter enclosure. And if you want wireless connectivity—AirPort or Bluetooth—you can order your Mac mini with these capabilities built-in; with the Dell, you’re stuck using USB dongles and adapters. Aren’t these “featuresâ€

[shooraijin]

I don't think you can *order* that, but it's not hard to find a PCI wireless card, no (and like I alluded above, you can also do that to fix the lack of FireWire, though it's not a BTO option either). It's no great hardship; it just adds to the total cost of the system.

[Arnobius]

[quote="shooraijin"]I don't think you can *order* that, but it's not hard to find a PCI wireless card, no (and like I alluded above, you can also do that to fix the lack of FireWire, though it's not a BTO option either). It's no great hardship]
That's what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned that the article said you could order the wireless capability for Mac Mini: What's the cost of upgrade vs upgrade?
EDIT: That specific system has rather lame upgrade options, doesn't it? Every other PC seller seems to offer wireless as an option. Well, I hate Dell anyway.

[shooraijin]

I don't know what PCI wireless is going for in comparable cards, but Bluetooth internal on the mini is $50 and AirPort Extreme is $79, according to the Apple store.

[Arnobius]

I don't know what PCI wireless is going for in comparable cards, but Bluetooth internal on the mini is $50 and AirPort Extreme is $79, according to the Apple store.

Seems to be similarly priced. Bluetooth PCI cards ran about that ($40-70 was the range I saw, presuming I was looking at the right thing) and the Airport extreme card I saw seemed to be for both PC and Mac.

Lack of firewire a problem, but I'm thinking that their reasoning is: in a business environment USB 2.0 is probably good enough for a basic computer. It is slightly faster than firewire 400 (though, if I was working with DV, I'd definitely want firewire). Suprisingly, Apple Firewire cards seemed more expensive than PC firewire cards.

Well, I'm certainly not trying to defend Dell anyway.

[Tycho]

1. Encryption
2. ASR Backup
3. Ability to change default non-Unicode language on the fly. Useful when trying to install JP language games

.

Frankly, feature wise, they're fairly similar. OS X has all three in the lastest release. Non-Unicode languages is a breeze in X, easier in my opinion than XP. Select the languages you want in a control panel and then Command-Space cycle.