CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Hmm, lots of questions, and an even wider range of answers. Just to let you know we don't really encourage debates around here, so if this thread starts to heat up, it will be locked

Hmmm...interesting questions. Actually, it's also interesting because I was considering one of those questions myself the other night and almost posted it. So I'm glad you asked it, Shinji Ikari. It's the one about whether Satan could repent if he wished to. I'm pretty sure that's a moot point (Satan himself repenting). However, there were a ton of angels (like 1/3 of all the angels in Heaven I think) who followed Satan. I know it's not the same, but in a way it's kind of like Adam and Eve choosing to turn away from God because of Satan and entering a fallen state. What if one of those angels had a change of heart before final judgment and wished to return to God? Could they accept Jesus Christ as their savior and return to God?

As for the reason for Satan's fall I'm not the best one to answer this. I heard some thoughts on it in my Bible study, but I can't remember specifics. From what I heard there's no certain answer, and there are at least a couple theories.

One possibly is that Satan disagreed with God's decision to forgive mankind. I think in this line of thought it was reasoned that Satan's "job" in Heaven was basically to keep a tally of every human being's sins for God, and Satan was able to see all our sins and felt we didn't deserve redemption. But this doesn't necessarily make sense when one considers Satan was the one who directly led to our fall. Of course, if you're eternal then chronology may not have that much importance.

Another is that Satan thought himself better than or equal to God. Remember, he was once the most beautiful of all angels.

Another is that Satan was/is jealous of human beings and the relationship God had/has with us.

I'm guessing others probably have more in-depth insights as to this than I do.

I had a friend who used to say that there would be three figures in history who were "antichrist-like" and the third would signal the endtimes. He always said the first was Napoleon, the second Hitler, and the third had not yet come or was soon to come. I'm not sure that theory is Biblically sound but it was always interesting and slightly unnerving to me as a kid.

Spiritsword

I don't know, but a street preacher once told my husband he was the anti-christ. Hmm... I got kinda angry at that comment and threw grapes at the guy.

Blessed be the one true judge

As to the question about Satan's fall, I did some research:
1 Timothy 3:6 ["He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil."] implies it was a pride issue.

Isaiah 14:12 supports this:
"12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit. "

Ezekial 28 also has a passage on Satan/his origins, but the most relevant part is this:
"17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings."
Lastly, John writes a broad statement concerning Satan in his gospel, chapter 8, verse 44.

As to the question of whether the anti-christ is living today or not, I can't answer. And I think it's meant to be that way...because Christ wanted to catch us unawares, and come as a theif in the night. If we knew who this guy was, we'd wait til he came in power to repent, instead of always being on the alert for His return. That make sense?

Anyone ever wonder why both Jesus and Satan are called "Morning Star?" (Isa 14:12, Rev 22:16) Where's the head scratcher smiley?

Originally Posted by Rashiir
Anyone ever wonder why both Jesus and Satan are called "Morning Star?" (Isa 14:12, Rev 22:16) Where's the head scratcher smiley?

That's why i don't read the New International Version. The King James Bible reads something like "How art thou fallen from Heaven O Lucifer"......

I think we're supposed to know who the Antichrist is, simply because Jesus tells us to "look up, for your redeption draws nigh". It doesn't say it's a pinpointer for the exact time of his return, it says that this way we will know the time is near.

Well, there have been a ton of good answers, and I'll try to stick to things that haven't been said yet.

Morning star is a glorious image, and it is my belief that Lucifer, as an angel, was glorious. But I can't remember when Jesus is called Morning Star...

In general, especially in regards with St. Peter's stuff, I think we really shouldn't use "the" in referance to anti-christ. I believe that there is more than one, nor is it our duty to decide who is and who isn't.

Two things, then I'm done. First, I've come to take Revelations really as mainly applying to the church at the time, not as a prediction of events. Look through the book, and see how long it takes for the future kingdom of God to get mentioned. It's awhile. While some parts of it are certainly speaking about the future, I believe the school of thought that says Revelations is primarily about the church and Rome is correct.

Lastly, though asking questions and discussing this is fine, it wouldn't be right for us to get hung up on the end of the world. Only the Father knows...
If Satan can get you focused too much on events at the end of the world, he'll have accomplished his purpose. Plus, Apocalyptic stuff holds little in regard to changing our lives.

Originally posted by Ashley:
If we knew who this guy was, we'd wait til he came in power to repent, instead of always being on the alert for His return. That make sense?

This is one point I have to disagree with you on, Ashley. *gasp*

Our lives here on earth can end at any moment, regardless of when the end times come. As far as I'm concerned, even if I knew the exact moment the antichrist would come, I wouldn't wait till then to repent. That's one area where it's not good to play around or procrastinate. Besides, if we repent now, our relationship with Jesus Christ starts now. Why wait?

But maybe that's not exactly what you were saying in your post. If you're saying we shouldn't become complacent in our faith, I agree with that. And good job on the research regarding the fall.

Still, no one has answered that question I was curious about.
Can fallen angels repent?

I know, from my bible studies that Satan was an angel protector, who's beauty was second to GOD. And because of this, and his increasingly popularity with the other angels, he felt to proud and started to get angels on his side, in order for him to take a place similar to GOD, he never wanted to overthow him, just be his equal. But GOD knew that, and in the mighty battle in heaven, where Michael and his warrior angels defeated satan and his minions, they were sent here, earth, before humans were ever created. Satan wanted to be the second GOD, and that is just plain impossible, so he messed up his own glory by liying to the angels, because if he ever wanted to make those angels follow him, he had to lie by telling them they would win.

By the way, morning star means beautiful and bright, not a special comment, GOD is not a morning star, he is spirit.

Darkoon

OH, by the way, since the end of the world is already written in GOD's word, I think the angels cant repent, and neither does Satan.

Darkoon

Well, you hit what I was aiming for. I meant that if pastors started teaching who the anti-christ was, people would procrastinate on becoming saved. Or they'd become complacent if they were saved. That feeling of "you never know when you'll die/Christ will come" is supposed to keep us on our toes, living every moment like it's our last.

I guess your original question depends on how much you think God's given us. Let me explain: Obviously God is omniscient; He knows exactly what will happen at the end of the Earth/the judgement day, etc. To my knowledge it's never said that demons cannot repent, nor has it said that demons will repent either. As to whether they can or not, that depends on if you believe there's more to the end times than God is telling us. In other words, just because it isn't mentioned in the bible doesn't mean it can't happen.

I do know that Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32 both say "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Now granted, these verses were all in reference to humanity, but it never said "and all mortals shall be saved".

Another interesting verse is this,
"For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"-- Romans 5:10.

I find it interesting that we as Christian are referred to as "God's enemies" at one time. That tells me that it is not God's unwillingness to forgive the demons/fallen angels--because their sin is no less than ours--but rather, their condemnation comes from their lack of repentence. So I guess the short answer would be, yes, a demon could repent. However, I think it'd be a lot harder for one to, since they have been in the presence of God and still refuse to believe, if that makes any sense. God didn't have to prove Himself to them, they knew He was the creator. That tells me that their pride goes a lot deeper than their sense of reverence for God, and I highly doubt that's something that can be broken, if at all.

Well, one time i read this really great story called "The Fall" from this really awesome author and it was about a fallen angel repenting. So the author obviously believes that fallen angels can repent, and I think so too.

Btw, Jesus definitely said: "I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." And Lucifer means "morning star" anyway, so the King James really isn't any different than the NIV in that respect. Maybe Jesus is the bright morning star and Satan's the weak one?

darkoon wrote:OH, by the way, since the end of the world is already written in GOD's word, I think the angels cant repent, and neither does Satan.

Ding, ding!

I think that's the most important fact to concider when you start talking about repenting angels, etc. You have to start from the standpoint that human's exist within time, and God outside it.

Lemma: God, satan, angles and demons all exist outside of time, and therefore are privy to knowledge of events past, present and future..

Problem: If Lucifer and his angel buds were able to see that what they were planning would not work, would cause them to get ousted from heaven and in the end would result in eternal roasting in the firey pit, do you really think they would go ahead with this plan?

The real question becomes this. If God has this knowledge, then why did he make those angels (including lucifer) in the first place? Or would you say that those angles existed without being created by God? If that's the case, it makes a lot more since why lucifer could believe he was an equal to God.

But this kind of thinking is concidered herasey most places, and may even get me in trouble here. (I honestly don't know why, thought.) My advice is to no discuss it to much, because you (not you personally, think along the lines of the word 'one') probably won't like what some people will say.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

How do you know that angels are outside of time?

Rashiir wrote:How do you know that angels are outside of time?

Sorry. I thought the lemma/prob was clear on this one. Re-read the next paragraph as though it were NOT in agreement with the first.

OH Boy... questions. shall i?

Q1: The beast refers to Satan.

Q2: I have no idea who the Anti-christ will be, i know the role of the anti-christ as he becomes a false messiah... joining the world under one government. (not a good thing) and his/satans rulership.

Q3: I believe hate develops over time. I am sure that hate developed in satan over time, prolly after he was thrown out of heaven.

Q4: Ah, could Satan repent? well, if he could have, its too late now. the same as men there is a time when it is too late. same as people who never accept Jesus and then die.. well, Satan may have had his chance, but man that satan is too arrogant. Now it is too late, 'sides the bible says what will happen, God doesn't go back on his word.

Q5: This is how it all began... In the beginning was God (duh). well God decided to make creatures to worship Him and have a relationship with Him. Thus, the angels and heaven were created. Unlike man, all angels are not created equal. there was an angel that stood far above all other angels. He was Lucifer. Lucifer stood as the guard of the thrown room of God. (who knows how it started, but at some point Lucifer began to think too much of himself... he grew arrogant and greedy... he desired to become greater than God). Lucifer was able to convince 1/3 of the angels to join him in his "revolution." --- well it didn't work, God confronted him and was to sentence him. Yet satans plea was that "how could a loving God sentence His creations to damnation?" // thus a new example (trial exhibit) began. humanity. (you know the rest of this story i assume).

Comments... I don't see any place where angels are said to exist outside of time. Only God is eternal, angels have a begining same as us.. also even Jesus does not know the time of His return. He awaits the word from God the Father.
more questions?

In answer to OldPhil's theory about angels exisiting outside of God, I have one scripture to refute (and I mean that in a kind way)

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
--Colossians 1:16-17; emphasis added

Wow, lots of great points! This is turning into an interesting discussion. I agree with the point that angels were created by God and had a finite beginning. God exists outside of time. Angels exist forever from the time of their creation on, but I don't believe that they are omniscent like God. They know a lot more than we humans do (at least while we're on Earth), but they don't know all that God does, at least in my opinion. Satan knows from the Word that's he's pretty much done for, but as for other fallen Angels, as Ashley pointed out that isn't mentioned specifically. So I agree that they could probably repent if they wanted to, but it's likely they won't.

Lots of good points, Saint, but there's one I have to disagree with.

Originally posted by Saint:
also even Jesus does not know the time of His return. He awaits the word from God the Father

Does it say this in the Bible? In my belief, Jesus IS God, and thus is privy to all God's knowledge, so He should know when He is planning to return, even if no one else does.

Spiritsword

I base everything on scripture.
However, something's are strongly stated in the word, other things are not as clear. On this one i feel it is not all that clear, still that is my belief. I totally agree that Jesus is God. Why i say He will not know the time is just because of His role. Each member plays a role, God the Father is the architect of the Plan, Jesus acts out the Plan, and the Holy Spirit is the power behind it. Could God the Father, or the Son have raised Jesus/himself from the dead??? they both have the power, but it was the Holy Spirits role. So i base it that Jesus doesn't deal with the Plan, but humbly awaits the Fathers word.
And the verse for this is... Acts 1:7 "He said to them: 'It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."
Now could Jesus also know it, sure, but i feel that they keep to their roles, cause... well, whatever reasons God has.

As for why creating something "defective" in the first place is something we need to ask God himself later.

But I would like to ask, why create anything if doesn't do anything BUT what you tell it to? God would be creating robots that are programmed with "perfect" software. Even love would be just another software running.

That's why He gave us and the angels free will. He knows Lucifer is going to fall and bring a whole lot with him but He lets him regardless even if it'll result in God's own death since God blessed Lucifer with free will. That's the extent of God's love even to one that betrayed Him.

Without free will, it isn't love is it?

If on site that God knew Lucifer was rebeling then quickly "convinced" Lucifer otherwise, the concept of free will is compromised. It will be questioned if any of us has free will in the first place.

Are we doing or saying these things because He let us or because He MADE us?

I find the fall of the angels a testimony to His love of one of His greatest blessing: free will.

I will also give you some verses on the Fall of Satan.

Satan or Lucifer was at first the highest angel the "anointed cherub."
(the 3 highest types of angels are cherubim [Isa. 37:16], seraphim [Isa. 6:2, 3], and archangel [1 Thess. 4:16]... since it applies "cherubim" are the "covering angels," those who guard God's holiness)

He is the most impressive of all creatures!
Ezek. 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee the day thou wast created."
So to think of Satan as a red-horned monster would be off track... (fangirls beware )

Satan was such a perfect angel... at first. Ezek. 28:16 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Here we see Satan beginning to get the idea that... "hmm.. i want more."
How did satan get his demons? well... he is wise and powerful...and persuasive. Rev. 12:4 "And his tail [=power] drew the third part of the stars [=angels] of heaven, and [God] did cast them to the earth..."

more stuff later...

The Fall of Satan (2nd portion).

A nice recap verse.. Ezek. 28:17 "Thine heart [mind] was lifted up because of the beauty [the first fall, the moral fall-- the pride aspect], thou hast corrupted thy wisdom [choice and a mental sin going into action] by reason of thy brightness [special note: Lucifer means "shining one"]: I will cast the to the ground [the second fall], I will lay the before kings, that they may behold thee. [this part is to come later, with Christ's coming for all the Christians]."

The 3rd and Final Fall of Satan

Ezek. 28:18, 19 "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick [he has been adding up sin ever since]; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror [in terror], and never shalt thou be any more."

Satans end is assured... it was assured with Christ's resurrection from the dead. Satan had tried many ways to stop the coming of Christ and to end his mission while he was on earth. he failed. now Satan trys to delay the end, and take as many people with him as he can.

Next time... the volition [choice] of angels... Why it is over for angels. the choice is past.

Good stuff, Saint. And I'm glad you use all those scripture references. I'm looking forward to the next installment!

Interesting stuff! I'll have to dig up what St. Anselm and St. Thomas Aquinas had to say on the subject now. Short answer to their opinion: They can't repent because they don't have free will, although they did at one time (the argument runs along similar lines as to why human souls can't repent after death). I can't remember the rest.

For those interested (and not minding some heavy reading) more info may be found here

Rashiir wrote:Well, one time i read this really great story called "The Fall" from this really awesome author and it was about a fallen angel repenting. So the author obviously believes that fallen angels can repent, and I think so too.

I'm afraid I'll have to step in here. Actually, I don't believe they can. Part of the point of The Fall was that God gave them all a shot at repenting before things became permanent (according to me, similar to what Technomancer said). Why do I believe this? I really don't think angels/demons are built like us in any way, shape or form. God said "let us create man in our image" and he didn't really say this about angels. So I'm not so certain that this issue is even relevant.

As for angels being outside of time, I'd take my argument from general science, not the Bible (did that sound bad?). If time is directly linked to matter, and angels aren't made of matter, they should be outside of time. Unless, of course, there are levels of time and reality that we don't know about (which is the case in my story, btw).

Ok, I agree with that.

A Change of Heart? sorry... "every knee shall bow" but only some by choice.

Ok, so to talk about the fallen angels and Satan. Lets look back at the first Fall of Satan.
this is where Satan decided to try and gain more, to become greater than God. God knew the thoughts of Satan and confronted him and gave him the boot. With this Satan went to the angels and became the first revolutionary. He persuaded one-third of all the angels to join him in revolt against God. [see Rev. 12:4, also in earlier post] The other two-thirds chose for God. In a sense, eternity began for the angels at that point. Once the line was drawn, that wrote finis to the opportunity for angelic volition to choose for or against God! On one side of the line was Satan's crowd, and on the other side were the elect or holy angels.

Like how humans must decide in life whether or not to accept or reject Jesus' Grace Salvation. for the angels that moment was when they chose sides. You would think having known God in all His glory none would have chose against God... Satan is deceptive.

James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that -- and shudder." yeah... they know it and what it means for their future. Yet there is no longer the option to change sides... you must remember that "human history" interrupts their sentence. they were sentenced to the "lake of fire" right after the revolution. This was God's divine judgment. Satan questioned it to an effect of "how can a loving God sentence us to the lake of fire?"
[this same "question" has been asked many times by the human race.]

the verses for Satan's sentence are gather from Matt. 25:41 and Rev. 20.

Jesus died for the sins of mankind, not anything else, so in other words no fallen angel can repent and be saved by Jesus