Spiritual Warfare

[Game Master]

Have anyone ever played Spiritual Warfare for the Sega Genesis? It's the first Christian RPG ever and it's really cool.

[Lightbringer]

I've never head of it before. Is it a normal cartrage game, or is it one that exists only as a rom?

Lightbringer // Aaron

[Retten]

The game also happens to be a new pen and paper rpg check it out here
http://www.spiritualwarfarerpg.com/

[MasterDias]

I played and beat the PC version of Spiritual Warfare several years ago. It was an interesting game.

[TheMelodyMaker]

I've never head of it before. Is it a normal cartrage game, or is it one that exists only as a rom?

Nope, it first existed as an actual cartridge for the old 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment System (I know because I own one). Of Wisdom Tree's games that I've played, this has to be their finest piece of work--in my opinion. ^_^ (Only thing I have against it, though, is that there isn't enough music...)

[Game Master]

In my opinion, there should be more Christian games. It's a pity that there isn't.

[Master Kenzo]

Yea. I'm probably one of the few people who is making a Christian game. But really, it's kind of hard to get an idea. The game I'm making proabably won't have a Christian plot, I'm aiming more for no inappropriate content...it's a start.

[Gypsy]

Yeah, I played this game to death. The thought of throwing fruits of the spirit at people, fighting demons, and finding pieces to the spiritual armor was pretty fun. I played the Nintendo cart. I've never thought of looking for the rom of it, though. Wisdom Tree, the company that made it, also made other games such as Noah (you have to get animals on the ark), David (sort of like Mario, only you're finding lost sheep and beating back bears and lions), and Exodus (You're Moses, and you have to go through puzzle level after puzzle level to lead the children of Israel out of the wilderness). As far as the games go, I found them (except Spiritual Warfare) incredibly lame. I know that sounds horrible, but the quality of the games were not good at all. However, I found the fact that they were Christian games very neat. As far as actual Christian content, usually after each level, you had to fill in the blanks of verses and answer random Bible trivia.

[shooraijin]

There was some Christian shooter published not too long ago for the PC (called Catchumen or some such, too lazy to look it up a/t/m). PC Gamer said that they tried to review it, but "the disc burned our naughty fingers."

Something that bothers me about a lot of Christian media is that few people are willing to point out truly bad media (of any kind: music, movies, video, software) for fear of offending a fellow Christian or concern over breeding overprofessionalism. On the other hand, crappy workmanship is an equally lousy witness tool. I couldn't see people lining up outside movie theatres to see "Left Behind" because the movie was just painfully bad. Christian computer games have not advanced much in the quality department, either, over the "Chronicles of Narnia" game that I played on my C64 ages ago (and was just as dull).

[TheMelodyMaker]

In my opinion, there should be more Christian games. It's a pity that there isn't.

As far as the games go, I found them (except Spiritual Warfare) incredibly lame. I know that sounds horrible, but the quality of the games were not good at all. However, I found the fact that they were Christian games very neat.

All this is exactly what I thought 10 years ago]The Traveller's Guide[/I]. Still working on it. (I'm debating over whether I should start a new thread in here that explains what it's all about and why it's taken me this long to get a finished product off to the world, since I keep mentioning it all the time. I won't do that unless enough people express interest, though.)


My biggest problem with Bible Adventures and King of Kings was the play control. (Half the time I couldn't jump when I wanted to, and the other half I jumped when I didn't want to; not to mention that stopping on a dime was impossible! It got quickly frustrating. )

[kingoleer]

To me it seems that in the Christian world there is a lack of creativity, maybe that's the wrong word, but it seems to me as if Christians restrict themselves to the point where they feel anything that remotely resembles the world will cause others to question their credibility as a Christian.

Then again, here in North Texas, I've seen my share of churches that go too far towards the other extreme where they are a carbon copy of the world and what it has to offer, and then they don't even pull that off with any decency.

What we must remember is that the God we serve is a very creative being, and for proof of this you have to look no further than the world we live in. Another example though is when the Israelites were told to attack a city, they were never told to attack it the same way twice.

When Jesus healed the blind, He never did it the same way twice. Same thing when He would cast out demons. I just think that if there are any creative Christians out there in the Christian media they are definitely in the minority.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is really the way I feel. I don't want anyone to think this post was meant towards anyone else on the board, because I feel you guys are very creative indeed. I'd like to here more about this Traveller's Guide. Sounds interesting!

[Gypsy]

Yes, I agree with you that the Christian world as a whole is severely lacking in creativity. Isn't wasn't until fairly recently that Christian music took huge steps in becoming "modern." I really believe that the next generation of Christians is going to take things to the next few levels with Christian media.

[Razgriz]

The game also happens to be a new pen and paper rpg check it out here
http://www.spiritualwarfarerpg.com/

Pencil and paper RPG, awesome!


Christian entertainment should be something like teaching a lesson or story from the bible without recreating the story from the bible.

One example, though slightly off topic, is an anime "Voice of a Distant Star." Though not "Christian" per se. but as a Christian I got from it that God has that special someone planned for you in your future and to wait for that person. Though it may sound sappy coming from a guy, but that's what I got. (It's a love story after all)

Another would be Trigun, a story of redemption and not falling into temptation (for our main character, it's killing)

[uc pseudonym]

Just a general word on Christian creativity. We have a tendancy to go about things in a way that is, in my humble opinion, backwards. We shouldn't see a medium that has no Christian influence and try to add some, unless we are actual fans of that medium. (Have you see early Christian rock?) We should use our gifts to create things that are actual worthwhile, not cheap copies only noteworthy due to their Christian nature.

It's good our site is doing that, in regard to manga at least. Small steps.

[madphilb]

It's an older book (but interesting none the less), but in "The Gospel According to Peanuts" the 1st or 2nd chapter is titled "Art and the Church"... I think that chapter covers alot of what we've seen with the older Christain music compared to much of what we see today. If I can find my copy of the book, maybe I'll scan and OCR the chapter and post it somewhere.

PHIL

[Technomancer]

I don't know if we should restrict ourselves to the purely didactic. As uc mentioned, creative works (Christian or not) should be able to stand on their own as examples of their respective crafts. Explicitly Christian novels like Endo's "Silence", Greene's "The Power and the Glory" or Mary Doria Russell's recent books are brilliant in their presentation of religiosity, but they are also considered literary masterpieces in their own right by secular critics. These books don't try to recreate bible stories or present heavy handed moralizations, in fact they probably raise as many questions as they answer. Rather, they are concerned with the human condition of the believer in the world.

Nor, I think, do works even need to be explicitly Christian to be Christian oriented. Tolkien's novels, are by his own admission, very Catholic in their outlook. That is, they incorporate much of the author's theology and moral philosophy, but they do so in a very seamless fashion, and without ever giving the appearance of 'preaching'. Other artists who are Christian, like Bruce Cockburn for example, may not write what is popularly termed 'Christian music', but their faith illuminates much of their work (Bruce Cockburn, for those who don't know him is a popular folk singer whose songs are often concerned with social justice issues)

I could probably say more, but I'm already rambling uselessly, and haven't even mentioned computer games. What I said above still applies I think, so I'll leave it at that. I have only one piece of concrete advice to offer to would be writers (which you have no doubt heard before) and it is this: read. Read everything, especially what's hard, and what challenges your thinking. Seek quality and insight.

As an additional aside, an interesting book about the interplay of religion and culture is Father Andrew Greeely's book "The Catholic Imagination" (Jeesh, I'm turning into a frigging book club, recommending books all over the place).

[Bobtheduck]

...

I wrote a massive reply and it lost it because it didn't save my login... I'm really mad right now... When i calm down, maybe I'll do this again...

Ok, let me try to remember...

no, I wrote too much... it took me a half hour to write...

Ok... try to remember...

First off... All of the wisdom tree games were bad games... Spiritual Warfare was only somewhat good because it was a Zelda clone. It took a great game and made it ok. I mean, if I was looking at it as a non-christian (or even a christian perhaps) I'd think subconsciously "So making something Christian lessens the fun."

I want to make Games with an impact. I'm a Christian and I Love games, but I am also frustrated with Christians, particulary American Christians, and their attitude towards things... I played games like "Bible Adventures" and "King of Kings" which are just graphical alterations to older Color Dreams games, which was the biggest non-licenced game developers for the NES.

Wisdom Tree should be admonished for their efforts, but compared even with the games being released at that time, their games were sub-par. I know a lot of parents that bought them merely because they were "Christian" and they didn't want their children playing those "satanic games." So basically subpar creations were ok in the name of "protecting the children."

I have read through the posts in this thread, and I will say some things that people have allready said, but it all goes together and can't be separated.

People have had various ideas as to what makes a good game, but most of the people who have ideas for Christian games either don't even play games or they just have a separation thinking that christian games are this or that.

In all honesty, I just can't buy that a good Christian game is just some sub-par clone of a working formula that pelts you with bible verses, or a game that merely removes the controversial aspects of many games. Honestly, the average Christian fear of reality is frustrating and I belive it is keeping people from coming to Christ. Of course, there will be people that don't no matter what we do, but when we do things that hinder it actively, we are going to be judged for it.

I believe that Christians should be at the top of everything and we just aren't right now. A good Christian Game needs to be of a better quality than "secular" games. Below industry is an insult. Equal to industry is not enough because the very fact of Christianity is a scary thing (which,in addition, maybe they shouldn't know before they go into it that it's "christian") We need to be better than the rest of the industry.

1. We need to Love games. We have to be playing them, studying them, and have a respect for them. We need to be passionate about them. If we don't, it will show. Imagine someone writing a book who doesn't like to read. (ok, so that does happen, but look at when it does... it shows) If you don't have a respect and a love for what you're doing, God hasn't called you here... You can go pass out food to orphans and build schools and such, because those things need to get done and it doesn't matter much whether you enjoy it or not... (what i'm saying is that this requires no talent to do, and it's a way to serve that won't hinder anything...) No seriously, I believe with 99.9999% certainty that God will not call anyone into this field who doesn't love it... (I don't say 100 because, well, who can really know the mind of God...)

2. We need to make good games... I mean, really good games... We need to get people who are the best in their particular area, and every aspect needs to be better than the industry. If you're not exactly sure what that means, I'll tell you... That means we need to have the best Storywriters, Directors, CG cut scene animators, programmers, physics handlers, scenario directors, motion capture proffessionals, character animators, CG set designers, lighting directors, and most of all there needs to be excelent communication. This is not something that one person can do... There needs to be massive teams that work as one...

3. We need to get our feet in the industry. Get jobs in the area of expertise you want to have. Hang out with people who are top in their field... For me that means I'm going to try to get a job in either Square Enix or in Konami. That means living in Japan (oh darn!) and adjusting to a new culture. For most of you, that's probably not a possibility, so you'll just have to find a game developer in the US.

4. Pick your Genre wisely. I'm sorry, but something in me doubts that you could ever make a good Christian FPS. Anything wherein the plot can be ignored means that merely vague christian symbols or very watered down things is all that will get through... Games have enough of that allready. People need a lifechanging experience. I'm not saying shove it down their throats, but on the same not don't reward them for evading what you're trying to portray. I've heard people want to do RTS and that may work, but I would tend to think that it would be very hard to do that because the focus in those games is on numbers and math and strategy. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but the difficulty is much higher with that than it is with other styles of Gameplay. RPG's and cinematic "interactive movies" like Metal Gear Solid, for me I see the greatest possibility there. However, I'm only one person, so you may have Ideas, but I'll tell you up front you're walking on very unsure ground here in the first place, every wrong move is noticed 10x more than it would be in normal games. Gameplayers have different interests, so I can't cater to everyone... I can only cater to those who share my interests. That's where I'll be passionate. Do the same, but make sure you can get what you're doing to mean something to people in the style you choose...

That last note has been the biggest problem I've had. Most of the Christians that I know don't like games that question things, games that make you think (think as in about life, not about your next kill). They like FPS and RTS and platformers and beat-em-ups... I'm looking for people who can make a game that puts someone in a story and takes themk through a journey to discover what they need to discover, and most of the Christians i know just aren't interested in that.

My model for perfect game is Metal Gear Solid 2. There were some notable problems (one being long periods of time sans gameplay) but as for the purpose of the game and what it let it's players do, it was IMNSHO the best game ever made (well, the best series ever made actually) It had something it wanted you to find out and figure out, and it was an enjoyable game in the mean time, and you didn't find out until the end what it really was about (and some people didn't ever...) That's what I want to do. I want to make a cinematic masterpiece and a masterpiece of gameplay that forces people to think, is realistic (IE not sanitized or watered down) and portrays a facet of God's message... It can't BE God's message because that just isn't possible, but it needs to be a small seed and a big game. Does anyone understand what I mean?

So, that's all i have to say. I'm going to learn to animate and hopefully be a director in a game someday, but I'm gonna get my foot in the door and work my way up there.

I hope that those of you who want to see this sort of thing come to life, you will learn the skills you need... Game Making takes a large crew, and every piece is important. Maybe some of you will be on my team someday.

[madphilb]

Welcome to the state of Christian Music 10+ years ago. Hopefully we (as a community) can pull the rest of media up from that point to where music is today (or beyond). So far I don't see much of that (short of Big Idea).

I've got a few ideas of my own floating around, I'm going to share one of them at the risk of someone stealing it (yeah, right).

A FPS/RPG/Adventure type thing based off the Left Behind series.... but wait, don't leave just yet, hear me out.

The step for the game would be kinda like what they did with Enter The Matrix (BTW, I had the idea before I knew about ETM)... the story would run parallel with the books, following the "story" of the character you would "control" or "be."

The idea would be that your actions/decisions in the game would change the story somewhat. Early on you could choose to follow God, but say, be somewhat passive, in the background... or you could follow the Anti-Christ all the way to it's ultimate end, with many "shades" in between (middle of the road, just getting along).

You would be forced to follow the story somewhat (there has to be a certain amount of structure to it), but not forced to play a specific way.

Anyway....

A couple additional thoughts on this whole thing...

Most Christians seem to approach making Christian Games much like "skinning" your browser. Sure, it looks different, but it's still the same old junk (*cough* IE *cough*) with a new coat of paint, mabye even a little lamer (not that skins are a bad thing, I've picked up a few for Opera myself )... someone once said to me (as we watched someone playing, er, I think it was Soul Calabur in an arcade) "wouldn't it be neat to have a game like this based on King David or something?" Frankly a game like that would be kinda lame, worse once you took the good programming away from the game itself. (and besides, LOTR Two Towers game would be a better type of game for following the life of David, but I'd hate to see what the ESRB would do with the "foreskin" collection level ).

Audience/Reason/Market has to be considered when you're going to do a game... are you just trying to create something for Christians, or are you trying to communicate a message to the masses? In the end you're still going to have people who won't like or understand it... I've heard about a comment from a mother to her child as they where asking to get a Veggie Tales Video in a local Christian bookstore, she told her child "no dear, we're going to get something Christian!"

Finally, out of the Wisdom Tree games... I thought Moses/Joshua where a good ripoff of the "Boulderdash" games. Even thought it was kinda clever how they mixed in the imagery to fit.

"And that's all I have to say about that."

For now anyway

PHIL

[Bobtheduck]

Joshua and exodus and crystal mines... That was a favorite engine of Color Dreams... It's because they didn't know how to make a good platformer, so it's the best engine they knew how to make.

They stuck with a formula that worked... I have to admit I spent many hours on Joshua. But it is merely a ripoff when you come down to it. Nothing original. That was tolerable in the days of Famicom, but not with modern systems. (when something is a clone, everyone knows and it loses sales...)

[TrigunX89]

(In reply to Bob's post about his dream. It was pretty long, so I didn't quote it.)



Wow, very nicely said. I couldn't agree with you more. I hope we can make a difference. I've been thinking about being a game designer. Err... Though I don't know where to start or what particular job I want. I think that (some) people like games that make them think about life. Well, that's what I gathered from reading reviews about KOTOR, anyway. I still need to buy that game... And after reading what you said, I want to buy MGS2...

So... I guess I really just want to encourage you to do your best. And may God bless you and you're future business in the gaming industry.

Rock on! Heh...

[cbwing0]

I played Bible Adventures for the NES not too long ago, and it was just...hilarious. I heard about it in EGM (top 10 worst games if all time...that should tell you something), so I wanted to try it out.

I've had. Most of the Christians that I know don't like games that question things, games that make you think (think as in about life, not about your next kill). They like FPS and RTS and platformers and beat-em-ups...

Hey...I like FPS, RTS, and fighting games, and I question plenty of things. I also play RPGs and such, but fighting games are my favorite. It is not that I am stupid, just competitive.

[Azier the Swordsman]

I enjoyed Spiritual Warfare when I was little... of course, I hadn't played Zelda then, but all of Wisdom Tree's games were mediocre ripoffs.

If I ever start my own video game company, My goal is to make games that appeal to all audiences (including Christians and non-Chrisitans) focusing on genres like RPG's and survival-horror and improving on them. They won't be focused on cramming a bunch of religion down people's throats, but it will be acknowleged that God does exist in the worlds the games take place in.

[Bobtheduck]

Hey...I like FPS, RTS, and fighting games, and I question plenty of things. I also play RPGs and such, but fighting games are my favorite. It is not that I am stupid, just competitive.

FPS and fighting games by their very nature are not efficient at portraying a message. What I meant is that my Christian friends hated the very type of games that would be needed to really be Christian games... I'm sorry, but that stupid "Angels vs. Demons" thing was not a good Christian game...

A good Christian game must be a game in which the story is given priority. FPS, fighting games, and (as far as I can see) RTS games do not meet the requirements for something truely touching and seed planting. A good Christian game is one where the game and story come first, but the story is one that can't be ignored.

[cbwing0]

A good Christian game is one where the game and story come first, but the story is one that can't be ignored.

Of course if the goal is to spread the Christian message, then the story of the game will be very important (not to mention gameplay, characters, environment...). I was not arguing with this premise, only with your portrayal of fighting/FPS/RTS games as people who "don't like to think," as that does not describe me by any stretch of the imagination. However, I see now that that is not what you meant.

I will say that I prefer MMORPGS to console RPGs in which your character/path is more or less predetermined. I realize that that too is not suited to spreading a message through the story, which is why it is a good thing that I didn't need a video game to convert me.

I respect and admire what you are trying to do, and I hope that many people are led to Christ through your work.

[madphilb]

I will say that I prefer MMORPGS to console RPGs in which your character/path is more or less predetermined. I realize that that too is not suited to spreading a message through the story, which is why it is a good thing that I didn't need a video game to convert me.

A variant of RPGs are starting to emerge that I'm beginning to like....

Some give a good amount of freedom, such as Arcanum where you can go the good or bad route (and it changes part of how the game plays), but also doesn't have fixed "classes" (Fallout was like this). Games like KotOR and the new Jade Empire use a light/dark side system which effects the game (something that can be put to good use by believers as well I think).

Games like Morrowind and even better the upcomming Fable are good for being open-ended (giving you a bit of the MMORPG feel, without the "pay-to-play" system that they all suffer from), these are nice because while they still have a story element, you don't feel so pushed along on a rail.

Theif and Deus Ex spoiled me... I like having choices on how to deal with things.

Be interesting to see what some of us come up with in the comming years... I think we're about due for some breathrough in this section of the entertainment industry.

[Zilch]

Throught the years, I've never seen an above par(or par, for that matter) Christian game. Why? Because for some reason, these programmers feel the need to be extremely linear about things. Angel vs. Demon. Good vs. Evil. Hardly ever do you see anything off those lines. Why do they feel this way? The poor buggers are just trying to witness through the gaming platform. What they need to realize is that video games are made for entertainment. Christian gaming, while a good effort that I completely support, is seemingly doomed to fail unless they stop unwittingly forcing Jesus down their throats. If they could focus on the gameplay a bit more, that'd be nice.

[TheMelodyMaker]

It sounds like what we need is a game that doesn't even label itself "Christian" and doesn't even have any hint of it from the beginning but slowly starts introducing our Lord's good news of salvation into the story little by little. Am I right?

[Zilch]

That sounds about right. I think you've hit it on the nose.