CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

I recently wrote a rant/review thingy for FFXII, and thought I'd post a link here in case anyone was interested.

Warning: If you're a huge fan of the game, you're probably going to hate my guts

http://novelmonger.livejournal.com/2979.html

Looks like SOMEONE didn't play Final Fantasy Tactics!

Okay, I'll level with you. I didn't like FFXII overall either. It was the combat. The combat totally sucks, and I don't like the Gambit system either (though I will admit, due to the nature of combat, the Gambit system was extremely helpful...though again, since I think the combat is crap, that's not a compliment to the Gambits).

But you've got it all wrong! The music? The music is brilliant! One of the best parts of the game. You didn't play Tactics, so you wouldn't appreciate the music on the same level as a fan of that game. Here, I'll give you samples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mrVCtK9FeI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azKaZUfPOJ4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waB8BDjXyV4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_raDt-CA96w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UVMEHiA9sg&feature=related

The two guys who worked on the musical score for Tactics (Masaharu Iwata and Hitoshi Sakimoto) also worked on the music for XII...which is why it's so flippin' awesome. IN ADDITION, we got a remix of this theme from Final Fantasy V for Gilgamesh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtdQl6WuFeI

For when you fight him in FFXII!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCf9faVi5PI&feature=related

You have no idea how much fanboy pleasure there was in fighting Gilgamesh again to this music in XII.

The story was awesome, what are you talking about? Oh wait, I forgot, you didn't play Tactics, so you weren't used to and excited over a story that focused mainly on political intrigue, with the main characters being more of a backdrop to the larger goings-on. This was the central theme in Tactics, that there was a huge war (the Lion War) going on for succession of the throne, but Ramza didn't really participate in it in a big way, that credit going pretty much solely to Delita, who was greatly involved. I mean yeah, Ramza played a large role, just not in the actual battlefield fighting.

So, if you want the main characters to be all "WE'RE GONNA GO SAVE THE WORLD YEAH" then I can see how XII would be disappointing. But if you like a story that's a bit more subdued and intricate, then XII is pretty sweet, and definitely in the vein of Tactics.

About Vaan. Yeah. The problem with Vaan was that Basch was originally supposed to be the main character in XII. However, Square went "Wait! If we have an awesome grizzled old man with a beard, then hormonal teenage girls won't want to play it! We need a bishie!" Thus, Vaan was introduced, an afterthought in the game's storyline (which is why he plays no role). However, to his credit, the scene where he asks Fran her age was pretty funny.

I'm guessing that Penelo was introduced for much the same reason, because without her then the creepy otaku wouldn't have anyone to go "SO KAWAII MAI WAIFU~" over, since Ashe doesn't really fit that role well.

But yeah Basch was awesome and should have stayed the main character, and my party was always, always Vaan, Basch, and Ashe. They pretty much have the best overall stats and since everyone learns all the same stuff there's no reason to use anyone else.

I agree with you wolfs_howl, FFXII was pretty awful. It was the first FF game I had played since VI, and it is a pretty rude awakening. I loved the combat system, graphics, quickening chains (although they made the game a bit too easy), and those creepy creatures at the end of the storyline, about everything else bombed.

And Basch should have definitely been the main character.

ich1990 (post: 1400022) wrote:I agree with you wolfs_howl, FFXII was pretty awful. It was the first FF game I had played since VI, and it is a pretty rude awakening. I loved the combat system, graphics, quickening chains (although they made the game a bit too easy), and those creepy creatures at the end of the storyline, about everything else bombed.

And Basch should have definitely been the main character.

It's following the Hidden Fortress / New hope format. Telling the story from the secondary characters' points of view.

Vaan is 3po
Panelo is r2d2
Ashe is Leia
Basch is Luke
Balthier is Han
Fran is Chewbacca (essentially)

Ashe and Basch ARE the main characters, and Balthier has a higher place than Vaan and Panelo.

Nate (post: 1399999) wrote:Looks like SOMEONE didn't play Final Fantasy Tactics!

-_- No, I did play FF Tactics (the original PS1 version *gags over translation*). It was okay, but I didn't really get into that one either. (I felt like most of the characters had personality right up until they joined the party, at which point they went flat and boring.) I did like all the political intrigue in that one. Delightfully confusing. But I fail to see how that was replicated in FFXII. There were a few instances of political intrigue, like with Vayne's father for example, but nothing on the scale of FF Tactics - or if there was, it was handled in such a way that it wasn't clear that's what they were doing. The whole game seemed to focus much more on the combat, whereas in FF Tactics there seemed to be more emphasis on the machinations of the characters, or at the least an equal amount of both.

I still think the music wasn't done very well in FFXII. Maybe listening to the tracks themselves, they sound good, or they hark back to FF Tactics, but I really didn't think they worked well in the game - which is the point. Music in a game needs to enhance the experience, to draw out the emotions you're supposed to feel in the cutscenes or cement the feel of the locales when you're running around. Maybe "Hohoho, that's like such-and-such from FF Tactics!" does that for you, but for me it doesn't. It's nice when they can do something like that, but it also needs to fit in its own context. Kind of like the music in Kakariko Village in Twilight Princess. That tune has always sounded very village-y to me]So, if you want the main characters to be all "WE'RE GONNA GO SAVE THE WORLD YEAH" then I can see how XII would be disappointing. But if you like a story that's a bit more subdued and intricate, then XII is pretty sweet, and definitely in the vein of Tactics.[/quote]
Then if FFXII was supposed to be a "subdued and intricate" story, they shouldn't have designed the game so that it implied it was a "WE'RE GONNA GO SAVE THE WORLD YEAH" kind of story. FF Tactics felt like a political intrigue kind of game. FFXII felt like a pointless dungeon crawl pretending to have a deep story. I'm not saying FFXII could never have been a good game. All I'm saying is that they handled it the wrong way.

About Vaan. Yeah. The problem with Vaan was that Basch was originally supposed to be the main character in XII. However, Square went "Wait! If we have an awesome grizzled old man with a beard, then hormonal teenage girls won't want to play it! We need a bishie!" Thus, Vaan was introduced, an afterthought in the game's storyline (which is why he plays no role).

DX Basch would have made such a better main character. I still think it would be an awesome break from the norm to have Balthier be the main character, though And...how is Vaan a bishie?

the_wolfs_howl wrote:-_- No, I did play FF Tactics (the original PS1 version *gags over translation*). It was okay, but I didn't really get into that one either. (I felt like most of the characters had personality right up until they joined the party, at which point they went flat and boring.)

KILL THE HERETIC.

Nah just playing. Yeah the original's translation was pretty bad, even worse than 7's translation (which was awful too...what was with Square and the bad translating during that period?).

The reason why the characters had personality up until they joined the party was simple, although I can understand your frustration. You can deny characters the right to join you. Naturally, this means that the story has to go on regardless of if you let them join or not, so they can't play any major roles after you get the choice to let them join, because otherwise they'd have to program in like 50 different storylines depending on who joined (you might let Mustadio join but not Orlandu, or you might let both of them join, or you might get rid of them both).

Again, it's a bit disappointing, and having certain characters only made a few small events happen (you can't get Cloud without Mustadio, and without Beowulf you can't get Reis). Still, that's the reason why.

I did like all the political intrigue in that one. Delightfully confusing. But I fail to see how that was replicated in FFXII. There were a few instances of political intrigue, like with Vayne's father for example, but nothing on the scale of FF Tactics - or if there was, it was handled in such a way that it wasn't clear that's what they were doing.

Confusing ain't the half of it. XD But I don't see how you can say XII was more confusing than Tactics. Especially since for over a decade we had to rely on the PS1 translation.

The whole game seemed to focus much more on the combat, whereas in FF Tactics there seemed to be more emphasis on the machinations of the characters, or at the least an equal amount of both.

I disagree, since in XII you actually had the ability to run around towns and interact with people, and in Tactics there was nothing BUT battle, you could never control characters outside of battle.

But a major failing of XII in that area is that at least in Tactics, characters had machinations. Fran, Penelo, and Vaan were basically just...there. In fact if I ever play XII again (HA HA NEVER HAPPENING) I should use a party of Basch, Ashe, and Balthier since they're the only characters that ever do anything important.

I still think the music wasn't done very well in FFXII. Maybe listening to the tracks themselves, they sound good, or they hark back to FF Tactics, but I really didn't think they worked well in the game - which is the point. Music in a game needs to enhance the experience, to draw out the emotions you're supposed to feel in the cutscenes or cement the feel of the locales when you're running around.

Hmm, personal opinion, so I can't really argue with that. I still think the music worked well with the areas. Theme of the Empire was a wonderful piece of music, and a lot of the music fit well in places, such as Giza Plains, Ozmone Plains, the Stilshrine of Miriam, Jahara, and ESPECIALLY the Salikawood. I seriously don't see how anyone could listen to the tune for the Salikawood and not think it's amazing.

Now to be fair not all of the music was fantastic. The music for the Sands was kinda meh, and most of the towns weren't so great either. And the Sandsea...ARGH THE SANDSEA SO MUCH HATE. That was absolutely, by far, the WORST part of the game, and the music wasn't good either.

Kind of like the music in Kakariko Village in Twilight Princess. That tune has always sounded very village-y to me]
I thought I was the only one who felt that way! I heard the first few notes and I was like "OH YEAH I LOVE THIS MUSIC" then after I went "Wait...what? This isn't good at all."

Then if FFXII was supposed to be a "subdued and intricate" story, they shouldn't have designed the game so that it implied it was a "WE'RE GONNA GO SAVE THE WORLD YEAH" kind of story.

I didn't feel like they did...at the very least, I don't think it felt that way until the very end when the war broke out and they were all "HEY LET'S INFILTRATE VAYNE'S SHIP." They were more interested in getting the Nethecite so that Vayne couldn't use it...at least from what I remember.

DX Basch would have made such a better main character. I still think it would be an awesome break from the norm to have Balthier be the main character, though

Eh I don't think it would've been a break from the norm. A wisecracking ladies' man type thief was done...it was called Zidane in Final Fantasy 9. Besides, and although I know they're different characters entirely, I can't help but feel Balthier was at least a BIT inspired by Jack Sparrow. If only a touch.

Basch on the other hand, a hardened warrior with a beard? A BEARD? When was the last main character in a Final Fantasy game with a beard? There was like...Barret in Final Fantasy 7. And even that wasn't a full beard, it was like a goatee. But Basch was a MAN'S MAN with a MAN'S BEARD. Plus he was all "I don't care what people think about me I'm still going to protect this country I love" which is so much like Ramza it makes me proud.

Besides, Balthier fits too well into the role of "cocky young hero." Yeah, he's 22, which is still sort of old for JRPGs (Cloud was 21 and Cecil was 20, but aside from that most leading characters in FF games don't even get into their 20s). Basch was 36. Dude was old! And awesome! He didn't need to be cocky because he was a captain, he knew how to fight. I think that would be the break from the norm. :p

Clearly anyone in that getup doesn't care what people think about him, I agree.

But, off the record, I'm captain Basch.

Granted, maybe this isn't practical for the desert, but it looks great. Just throw that beard back on and we're set.

Nate (post: 1399999) wrote: IN ADDITION, we got a remix of this theme from Final Fantasy V for Gilgamesh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtdQl6WuFeI

For when you fight him in FFXII!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCf9faVi5PI&feature=related

You have no idea how much fanboy pleasure there was in fighting Gilgamesh again to this music in XII.

I need to pick that game back up (XII, not V... I got all the way to the end on V, but was never able to beat galznerking Exdeath, even with those otherwise grossly overpowered Mimes) That Gilgamesh music is awesome.

The combat and the Desert setting are TWO things keeping me from liking FFXII... I grew up in the desert, I don't like seeing too much of it on a game or movie. It may be partly why I never got into Trigun, either.

<_< *slinks back into the thread after a long delay*

Nate (post: 1402018) wrote:Yeah the original's translation was pretty bad, even worse than 7's translation (which was awful too...what was with Square and the bad translating during that period?).

I know, right? I suppose I should have gotten a more recent version of the game, but I just couldn't be bothered when I already had the original Thank goodness that at least the translation of FFXII was spectacular. They sure made it feel like it was fantasy, just like I've heard they did in the PSP version, and like in Vagrant Story, which I'm currently playing.

The reason why the characters had personality up until they joined the party was simple, although I can understand your frustration. You can deny characters the right to join you. Naturally, this means that the story has to go on regardless of if you let them join or not, so they can't play any major roles after you get the choice to let them join, because otherwise they'd have to program in like 50 different storylines depending on who joined (you might let Mustadio join but not Orlandu, or you might let both of them join, or you might get rid of them both).

*sigh* I know, I know. I have this same problem with all similar games. I wish they didn't have to be like that - I mean, surely there's some way you can pick and choose your people, keep them interesting, and not do too much extra? But then, I guess if there was, everyone would already be doing it Generally speaking, though, I find that stories where you don't choose your characters are deeper and more worthwhile, just because they're able to be and can decide for themselves when people join or leave the party. And for me, the story is everything in an RPG, so that's a very important part of my contention with FFXII.

Confusing ain't the half of it. XD But I don't see how you can say XII was more confusing than Tactics. Especially since for over a decade we had to rely on the PS1 translation.

No, I'm not saying that FFXII was more confusing. It was less confusing, and less complex, which made the story a bit less enjoyable, I thought.

I disagree, since in XII you actually had the ability to run around towns and interact with people, and in Tactics there was nothing BUT battle, you could never control characters outside of battle.

Hmm, I guess it's probably just the way I play games, but bits of NPC-interaction in between dungeon crawls doesn't seem like a better alternative. I guess what I was hoping for was more scenes among the party itself - where we'd get to see the relationships between the main characters develop and flourish. Yeah, they had scenes, but a lot of the relationships felt very undefined and amorphous - which led to the fiasco at the ending where it felt like they were trying to cater to every pairing imaginable

But a major failing of XII in that area is that at least in Tactics, characters had machinations. Fran, Penelo, and Vaan were basically just...there.

Got that right.

I seriously don't see how anyone could listen to the tune for the Salikawood and not think it's amazing.

Well, maybe for me it has something to do with reaching the Salikawood and discovering I was sadly under-leveled, and had to watch my poor chars be mauled by those glowy blue cat things a bajillion times (not the Coeurls, the...other things). Intense frustration can cause instant loathing of the endlessly looping music.

I thought I was the only one who felt that way! I heard the first few notes and I was like "OH YEAH I LOVE THIS MUSIC" then after I went "Wait...what? This isn't good at all."

High five! That was pretty much exactly the reaction all three of my siblings and I had when we were playing Twilight Princess. But I did kind of go "aldkfja]I didn't feel like they did...at the very least, I don't think it felt that way until the very end when the war broke out and they were all "HEY LET'S INFILTRATE VAYNE'S SHIP." They were more interested in getting the Nethecite so that Vayne couldn't use it...at least from what I remember.[/quote]
Yeah...so maybe they weren't saving the world, but it was still a huge slogging dungeon crawl for most of the game. Now, I know to expect some of that when going into an RPG of any description, but usually the dungeon-story ratio in a Final Fantasy is much heavier in the other direction, so I don't mind as much. The way FFXII was set up, I would take so long just leveling my pitiful characters up and trying to find my way through the labyrinthine levels (dude yes the Sandsea DX), that by the time I'd get to a cutscene and some story, I would have forgotten half of the stuff that happened before.

Eh I don't think it would've been a break from the norm. A wisecracking ladies' man type thief was done...it was called Zidane in Final Fantasy 9.

Ah. The reason I didn't catch onto that would be because I haven't played FFIX yet. And before you go all "WHAT YOU BLASPHEMER HOW DARE YOU NOT PLAY ONE OF THE BAJILLION FINAL FANTASIES IN EXISTENCE!!" or whatever ( ), I fully intend to. I only have FFVIII and FFIX to close up the gap in my Final Fantasy gaming experience ^_^

Besides, and although I know they're different characters entirely, I can't help but feel Balthier was at least a BIT inspired by Jack Sparrow. If only a touch.

Yeah, but you can say that about nearly every character that fits the description of "wisecracking ladies' man". Especially if they happen to be a pirate.

Basch on the other hand, a hardened warrior with a beard? A BEARD? When was the last main character in a Final Fantasy game with a beard? There was like...Barret in Final Fantasy 7. And even that wasn't a full beard, it was like a goatee. But Basch was a MAN'S MAN with a MAN'S BEARD. Plus he was all "I don't care what people think about me I'm still going to protect this country I love" which is so much like Ramza it makes me proud.

Besides, Balthier fits too well into the role of "cocky young hero." Yeah, he's 22, which is still sort of old for JRPGs (Cloud was 21 and Cecil was 20, but aside from that most leading characters in FF games don't even get into their 20s). Basch was 36. Dude was old! And awesome! He didn't need to be cocky because he was a captain, he knew how to fight. I think that would be the break from the norm. :p

I...can't argue with that. That would have been super cool

the_wolfs_howl wrote:I suppose I should have gotten a more recent version of the game, but I just couldn't be bothered when I already had the original

Eh it's just as well. As much as I enjoyed the PSP version of Tactics, since it had a better translation, a few new missions and story stuff (they expanded the Beowulf and Reis storyline which is awesome), it was done very poorly with inexcusable slowdown whenever you cast a spell or used an ability. They also changed a few things that didn't make any sense. A good example is the Monk's ability Hamedo in the original was changed to First Strike...which seems all well and good, you'd think "Okay they're just getting rid of unnecessary Japanese words." Until you find out that the Samurai's Blade Grasp was changed to Shihiradori. So whatever...

They also changed a few of the JP requirements for certain abilities. This actually is a changing back, since the original game lowered a few JP costs for abilities from the original Japanese version...but they're restoring it to the original now. So Fly for Bards, for example, now costs 5000 JP instead of 1200 JP. Which is stupid because Fly is worthless anyway (especially since to get a Bard, you have to level up magical classes, one of which teaches Teleport which is just as good, and cheaper!).

Vagrant Story, which I'm currently playing.

It sucks being the only person on the planet who hates that game.

Generally speaking, though, I find that stories where you don't choose your characters are deeper and more worthwhile, just because they're able to be and can decide for themselves when people join or leave the party.

So you're completely in support of say, games like 4 and the early discs of 9, where people leave and join your party on a whim. I'm fine with that too for much the same reason, although I know a lot of people who hate it.

I just think it makes more sense than say, Persona 4 or the later discs of 9 where it's like "Oh hey all 8 people are traveling around together but you can only use four in combat because uh...um...LOOK OVER THERE. *run away*"

No, I'm not saying that FFXII was more confusing. It was less confusing, and less complex, which made the story a bit less enjoyable, I thought.

Oh okay. Darn my poor reading comprehension.

Hmm, I guess it's probably just the way I play games, but bits of NPC-interaction in between dungeon crawls doesn't seem like a better alternative. I guess what I was hoping for was more scenes among the party itself - where we'd get to see the relationships between the main characters develop and flourish.

So you'd love a game like Persona 4, where pretty much the entire game centers around relationships and social-linking with other characters and the dungeon crawls are only a couple of hours long.

I suppose that's why the more hardcore SMT fans don't look too kindly upon it (plus I think that it's easier than the regular games).

those glowy blue cat things a bajillion times (not the Coeurls, the...other things).

Panthers. I didn't have many problems with them. Also they were in Golmore Jungle, not the Salkawood. :p The Salikawood was the place with the Antares (mantis-looking things) and the bunnies, as well as the Malboro Kings and a couple of chocobos on one screen.

I think that the enemies that gave me the most trouble were probably those stupid zombies in the Grand Crystal. They were ANNOYING. Malboros were a pain too with their stupid Cloying Breath...and most of their kin too.

Oh and the enemies in the Necrohol, but that goes without saying.

Nate (post: 1406933) wrote:Eh it's just as well.

Oh, good. At least I know I wasn't being cheap

It sucks being the only person on the planet who hates that game.

I'll admit that the gameplay is...well, really horrible, to be blunt XD Way too hard, and extremely clunky - cloudstones are my worst enemy DX The main thing I like about the game is the writing - THEY USE METAPHORS IN THEIR REGULAR LINES!!!!!!!! Nobody uses metaphors nowadays, it seems. The story also seems like it's probably way more obscure than it needs to be, but I'm enjoying myself because I love the writing. I doubt Vagrant Story will make it onto my Favorite Games Of All Time list, but I'm having a good time.

So you're completely in support of say, games like 4 and the early discs of 9, where people leave and join your party on a whim. I'm fine with that too for much the same reason, although I know a lot of people who hate it.

I just think it makes more sense than say, Persona 4 or the later discs of 9 where it's like "Oh hey all 8 people are traveling around together but you can only use four in combat because uh...um...LOOK OVER THERE. *run away*"

Exactly. FFIV was a bit too far in terms of characters leaving on a whim, but I have no problem with characters leaving the party for story reasons. I find it more fun that way, actually, because that gives an element of uncertainty to the story, so you feel like anything could happen. Within reason, of course. But yes, I find that much more appealing than characters suddenly falling flat as soon as their introduction's done.

So you'd love a game like Persona 4, where pretty much the entire game centers around relationships and social-linking with other characters and the dungeon crawls are only a couple of hours long.

Um...yeah? 8D My brother and I like to half-joke that the best video games are the ones where you get to put down the wireless controller so long during the cutscenes that it turns off. That's a bit of an exaggeration]do[/i] find RPG gameplay fun, so that's just personal preference.

Also they were in Golmore Jungle, not the Salkawood. :p The Salikawood was the place with the Antares (mantis-looking things) and the bunnies, as well as the Malboro Kings and a couple of chocobos on one screen.

Oh, right. Too many forests.... @_@
Although, thinking about it again, there were two forests in FFX, and they both had the same music.... Still, they felt very different, and their enemies were really different from each other. The enemies in the different forests of FFXII looked more similar.