CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Disclaimer: I'm not familiar with Kuroshitsuji.

Let me come at things in a kind of roundabout way.

Real-life pirates murder, rape, and steal. However, fictional pirates, when they are shown sympathetically (e.g. in Pirates of the Caribbean) are rarely shown doing things like attacking and murdering innocent people and taking their money. This kind of fiction romanticizes pirates and makes them out to be not that bad after all.

Actual demons, of course, are beings that have nothing but malice towards human beings; they want to mar and ruin God's creation as much as possible, out of a sense of spite, and want to cause as much pain and suffering as possible. They do things like possessing kids and then throwing them into open fires or telling warlords in Africa that it would be a great idea to use children as soldiers. But is your character Sebastian doing things like that? From what you said, it sounds like he isn't, so despite the fact that the word "demon" is used, there is probably a huge difference between the actions of this character, who is probably a sympathetic character and not shown doing things that are truly evil, and actual demons which desire nothing but to kill and destroy.

By the way, Japanese people are only 1% Christian and the remaining 99% of them know pretty much nothing about Christianity or about what devils and angels really are according to the teachings of Christianity. They use things like angels and demons as basically exotic decoration. (The "fallen angel" issue is probably due to this very thing: very likely the author did not know that "demon" and "fallen angel" are actually the same thing and used the two different terms to create two different kinds of fictional creatures in this fictional universe; trying to figure out how they fit in with real theology is not going to get you anywhere.)

So there are a couple of layers to this, one of which is that you have a being that ought to be evil being portrayed as not really all that evil (kind of like Pirates of the Caribbean); and the other of which is that there's a distortion of Christianity, with terms from Christianity being misused, maybe with Christian teachings being misrepresented. For me personally, this kind of issue with Japanese series that have "demons" (not to be confused with youkai but actual demons from the Christian worldview) or other misrepresentations of Christianity is sometimes not that big a deal and more just something to roll one's eyes at, but serious misuse of Christianity does sometimes bother me (Kainushi wa Akuma is a manga that goes to an extent that I feel is actually disrespectful of Christianity).

However, the most important thing for you right now is to follow your own conscience and the direction of your parents. If you got this far and are still reading, and if you still feel uneasy or guilty about enjoying a "demon" character a little bit too much, then maybe you should consider giving the series a rest and turning to something else that is more wholesome for you. And, if you're living with your parents and under their authority, you should give some consideration to their wishes as well. Wouldn't it feel better anyways knowing that no matter what you happen to be watching when your parents come into the room, you don't have anything to be worried or ashamed of? At least you might consider broaching the topic with them of what they would think of fictional creatures that are called "demons" in this fantasy world but aren't actually evil the way that real demons are (without necessarily mentioning that you are watching such a series).

Lastly, and most importantly, don't forget to pray about it if you aren't already. Ask God what he thinks about it and to guide you to please him with your entertainment choices. When you are watching the series or thinking about the characters, try imagining what Jesus would think about it. And as much as possible, try to remind yourself of the presence of God.

. . . Oh, and welcome to CAA.

It's one thing to be attracted to a fictional character (or more than one) within a form of media and entertainment. Quite another if you start treating said character as though he or she existed in reality. I don't know what your "crush" on this character consists of, but if it's along the lines of "my favorite character" or you like how said character has a good story arc or design, then I don't feel there'd be any cause for concern.

I agree with Kaori. A lot of anime and manga incorporate symbols/terms taken from other religions, even the occult. 9 times out of 10, it's simply because the creator thought it looked cool and there's no real hidden meaning behind it. That, however, is not to say it applies to all anime/manga that use symbols and such throughout the story. That's where you'll have to exercise discernment and respect for others who might view it differently.

Also hasn’t seen Black Butler. Might do so because of this thread.

I think Kaori and K. Ayato hit the nail on the head. I’m just here to add Bible verses and look cool.

1 Corinthians 10: 23-24: All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.
1 Corinthians 10:31: Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Ephesians 6:1: Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:  “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”



I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find anyone on this site who will say that watching Kuroshitsuji is an outright sin. The problem is doing so while knowing that your mother would disapprove. That alone would, yes, make it sin. That’s something which you need to work out with her.
The second problem is if the series is allowing an opening for thoughts that are best stayed away from, therefore making the series a foothold for sin to enter your life.
Lastly, I'll reiterate what Kaori wrote about praying over this.

I’m not certain if you’re planning on hanging out at CAA or not. But if you do, we’re more than happy to have you.

I only watched Kuroshitsuji (Black Butler) the first episode, so I'm at least aware (even thou a little) about Sebastian. The anime has a dark theme with the boy master (don't know his name) and the fact that demons are portrayed as not harmful is like saying to the black that it is white. Logically
(and Biblically) that's a lie.

To have a crush on a demon is... sadly normal, due to our sinful nature (and how Sebastian looks in the anime). How your mother reacts depends on if she is
a (serious) Christian or that she doesn't care. Normally she would be weirded out at least (falling in love in a fictional character). I suggest you stop
watching this anime or rather forget about it. There are better ones.

Some Bible Sculpture:

1 Corinthians 10: 23-24: All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.
1 Corinthians 10:31: Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Ephesians 6:1: Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

Another thing to keep in mind is Japanese folklore. Take the fox, for example. Certain titles (InuYasha, Naruto, and Pet Shop of Horrors) have a character that's a fox or foxlike. Said characters either have a split personality or are shapeshifters, both of which tie into the cultural myths.

In regards to demons, there are some titles that portray them as dark and a threat to humanity. Some may even tap into how a spiritual being views the world of mankind (a bit like Death Note).

Regardless as to whether they're a fictional and/or romanticized portrayal of such, we should never lose sight of the hard truth that demons are real and dangerous.

K. Ayato wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is Japanese folklore.

Yeah, actually I was thinking about mentioning in my original post the confusion that there often is with the Japanese word "youkai" (which maybe everyone reading this thread already knows refers to supernatural beings from Japanese mythology which are not really either good or evil) getting translated as "demon," which is not really a good English-language equivalent for "youkai."

However, I already looked up what the word is that describes the character in question, and it's not "youkai," it actually is "akuma," which does correspond to the English word "demon" (or the Devil, Satan, a fiend, an evil spirit), and at least etymologically means an evil being (it is written with the kanji character for "evil").

So unfortunately, in this case we can't just say "They're youkai, and youkai aren't actually demons, they are just a Japanese mythological creature," because that's not the word that's used.

At least you might consider broaching the topic with them of what they would think of fictional creatures that are called "demons" in this fantasy world but aren't actually evil the way that real demons are (without necessarily mentioning that you are watching such a series).

This is my plan for if my mother ever confronts me on the matter. She is already afraid of the influence my interests have on me. Once, I watched part of an episode with her. (mostly as a joke, she was imitating the japenese spoken and such) By moving the screen around, i was able to hide demonic mention. I showed her one of the theme songs and she got a glimpse of a pentagram on one of the demon's hand. Good thing it was Claude's, because i was able to use the excuse of him being the antagonist. She said she didn't think i should watch that show anymore or listen to the music because of "satanic messages". So, that's how strict she is on this. I know she just cares about me, but i don't plan on willingly bringing up demons in a tv show that i watch.

As for how much of a crush this is, it varies. I have had deep lust some day, (sinful i know, please pray)(and jealousy towards the two other characters he had sex with...fictional character, not sinful, right??) to wanting to cuddle up to him, to being in the same room as him. Average is basically wanting to touch his abs...AAAAANYWAY~

I didn't think i would get responses as fast as I did to my problem. I'm so happy to have found a community of christians who can be both anime nerds and christians. I have never met anyone in real life like this, many things separate me from the rest of my school, including my anime and christianity. I have a hard time making friends in general and I'm happy people care about me. I might be falling into depression lately...basically I got a lot of problems over here. I've found a sense of peace, balance between my spirituality and my interests. Thank you, Christian Anime Alliance.

I'll chime in as someone who's seen Kuroshitsuji.

First of all, it's true that Sebastian is a "demon," to a certain degree. The main character does sell his soul to him, so while I'm sure the show is not attempting to depict Christian ideas, I can certainly see why Christians could take offense to this setting. That said, it's really used as the premise, and the behavior of the character which you find yourself attracted to is definitely romanticized. One could argue this is an example of 2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." (NIV), and in fact, this is kind of the case (he is only behaving this way in exchange for a soul), but the fact is this is a fictional story, and nearly 100% of this character's personality is shown to be a protective and honest character. The worries about you being attracted to a demon isn't really a problem with you but a problem with the show throwing in the fine print of "but he's actually a demon who wants to steal your soul."

This reminds me of the trap in anime. They draw a female character, have it act completely like a female, have it voiced by a female voice actress, then call it a male and say "haha you've been trapped it was actually a guy." Does this mean I, a guy, was actually being homosexual? Everything I was shown was female but the premise of the setting told me it was actually a male, and somehow that means I am attracted to males? I'm sorry, I have a hard time believing that. If, however, I was focused on that aspect of the "real" gender of the character, then that would be a different story. In the same way, because this is fiction, the characters are only demons because the show tells you they are, but you aren't attracted to "demon-like qualities," but actual good qualities of a human being. Basically, fiction makes for weird technicalities because it can so easily reverse situations with a simple "because I told you so." As long as the things which you are attracted to are the actual healthy, good qualities, then I don't think it should be a problem just because of a technicality.

Still, this is an interesting case because again, one can argue what you are being attracted to is a grand illusion created by a demon to steal your soul since that's more or less the character's real nature. Even if there is indeed no moral issue here, perhaps the lesson to take away is to be careful to not let yourself be swayed by the apparent goodness of a person when it's clear there are ulterior motives going on.

Regarding the fallen angel, you really need to take things like that in anime with a very small grain of salt. Japanese fiction loves to use random Christian/Western imagery without any deep meaning. Half the time it literally is used because "it sounds cool," and this is definitely the case in Kuroshitsuji.

Mod error note: I accidentally erased the first post in this thread trying to approve a couple other replies. Apologies, it's been a long day and I'm on the wrong time zone.

You're also still living under your mom's roof. Until you reach adulthood, best thing is to respect her decisions. If she doesn't like you watching this show, getting defensive ("oh, he's the antagonist") isn't going to help, let alone change her mind.

And hiding the "bad" parts should she decide to watch with you isn't a good move, either. Wouldn't it be better to find a show you enjoy and she is comfortable with, and not have to be deceitful and hide things you know she won't approve of?

I can't stop. I finished the show, and the manga, and I have chosen not to stop there. As for crushing on fictional characters in general, my few friends know me as having all the fictional crushes. Heres a list of the ones i've deeply crushed on in order:
Foxy - FNAF (shh..)
Link - LoZ - TP
Hak - Akatsuki no Yona
Light Yagami- Death Note
Sniper - TF2
Sebastian Michealis - Kuroshitsuji As stated in the deleted post, i crush on many more characters from black butler more minorly. This is with about every fandom.
I actually forgot entirely about the whole eating your soul part up until Kaze mentioned it...
Oh, and the pilot episode is much darker then the rest.

Even if there is indeed no moral issue here, perhaps the lesson to take away is to be careful to not let yourself be swayed by the apparent goodness of a person when it's clear there are ulterior motives going on.

Thank you.

shooraijin wrote:Mod error note: I accidentally erased the first post in this thread trying to approve a couple other replies. Apologies, it's been a long day and I'm on the wrong time zone.

false modesty is the best

Sit down and have a cup of tea; this is going to be a long post. It’s okay if you need to take a break in the middle and come back for the rest later. :p

thedragongirl77 wrote:I didn't think i would get responses as fast as I did to my problem. I'm so happy to have found a community of christians who can be both anime nerds and christians. I have never met anyone in real life like this, many things separate me from the rest of my school, including my anime and christianity. I have a hard time making friends in general and I'm happy people care about me. I might be falling into depression lately...basically I got a lot of problems over here. I've found a sense of peace, balance between my spirituality and my interests. Thank you, Christian Anime Alliance.

Very glad to hear it! Please do stick around and be part of the community; as John_Smith said, we are happy to have you.

thedragongirl77 wrote:As for how much of a crush this is, it varies. I have had deep lust some day, (sinful i know, please pray)(and jealousy towards the two other characters he had sex with...fictional character, not sinful, right??) to wanting to cuddle up to him, to being in the same room as him. Average is basically wanting to touch his abs...AAAAANYWAY~

Am I going to be the first one to address this? I guess so.

First of all, please don’t feel that there’s any need to feel guilty over the fact that you have crushes on fictional characters. To crush either on a celebrity or a fictional character—someone unattainable—is extremely common especially when you’re young and I think it happens to pretty much everyone.

But given the fact that you have a crush, which is sort of involuntary, what you choose to do with those feelings and thoughts, basically whether to dwell on them or not, is a matter of choice. Try thinking about this issue as if it were a friend of yours having these kinds of thoughts and not you. If your friend had the kind of fantasies that you describe, would that be helpful to her in any way? Would it be helpful for her salvation? No. Would it help her become a better person? No. Would it help her learn how to have relationships—romantic or simply friendships—with real young men? No. Would you be concerned and wish for something better for her? If it were me, I would.

In particular, let’s go back to that second-to-last question for a moment. Fantasizing too much can actually be damaging to relationships with people, and the reason is because it gives us instant gratification without our having to work for it, whereas gaining intimacy with a real human being in a real relationship is difficult and takes work. (In a different thread Okami was sharing about this, so thanks to her for really hitting the nail on the head about this issue.) So when we allow ourselves to be addicted to those kinds of thoughts, it teaches us to seek that easy, fantasy gratification from our fantasy world rather than doing the hard work that is required for two people to come closer together. Basically it is a harmful habit, and as much as possible I’d encourage you to think about things in this way: that fantasizing is something that is harmful to you, or at the very least not helpful to you, and not get caught up too much in feelings of guilt or to think of it with a guilt/punishment mentality.

Also along the same lines, there’s a study by Cornell University that found that teenagers who spend more time thinking about romance also have higher rates of depression, so it’s just not something that is beneficial.

Again, please don’t take this to mean that it’s bad to enjoy fiction or that you’re not allowed to have crushes on fictional characters—there is nothing wrong with enjoying fiction, and developing crushes on fictional characters is pretty normal for the stage of life you are in. But think about how much time you are spending dwelling on crushes on fictional characters and living in a mental fantasy world. If it occupies so much of your time that you are really constantly mentally absorbed in that kind of thing, then I would really encourage you to pursue some other interests also to give you some outward focus and break out of that encircling fantasy world that you can get sucked into. This could be whatever you enjoy, whether it is volunteering, sports, making art, singing, dance, playing with children, but preferably something active and/or creative, so that it gets you out of that mentality of fantasizing for a little while (so preferably not video games or reading fanfiction, not that those things are themselves bad either, they're just not the most helpful counterattack)—and again, not that this means it is bad to watch anime or that you have to stop watching anime, but just that it might be good for you to have another hobby in addition to anime that can help you get out of that absorption in fantasy.

Coincidentally, I just happened to as my pastor just a few days ago about what practical suggestions he has for redirecting fantasizing thoughts (in my case, it is mostly towards real people, which is not any morally better because I am sinning against the person I am fantasizing about). He had some good suggestions, and I also have a couple of other practices that I have found helpful. Most of these are going to be specific to Eastern Orthodox Christianity because that’s what I am, but please don’t feel like I am trying to force these things on you or promulgate Orthodoxy. (I’m not trying to promulgate it, it just comes naturally. :p That’s a joke, but it's also kind of true.) I am just putting these suggestions here so that if you want to try them you can, and if they help you, that’s great, but if they are too foreign to whatever your own denominational background is and you don’t feel comfortable with them, then please don’t worry about it. Maybe you can even think of a way to do something that has a similar basic idea but would be using the spiritual practices of your own church instead.

These were my pastor’s suggestions:

1. Remember the presence of God.

2. Give that person’s name to God in prayer. I guess this applies a whole lot more to a real person, huh. But in the case of a fictional character, maybe you could connect it to remembering the presence of God by then mentally presenting to God your feelings about the character, knowing that God is present with you and that he sees your thoughts and feelings. Tell him how you feel and ask him what he wants you to do with that, what is pleasing to him. It becomes a whole lot harder to continue fantasizing that you know is bad when you are thinking about the fact that God is present and with you.

3. Remember who you are as a human being, that you need to relate to other people as human beings as humans, in the wholeness of everything that they are as persons (mind, body, soul, their background, their own needs and emotions, rather than isolating just the physical aspect and treating their body and their physicality as an object and ignoring the rest of who they are as a person, which is what lust does), and not objectify them. (Again, this makes more sense in regard to fantasizing about a real person.)

4. Make the sign of the cross. Maybe you don’t have this in your denomination, and if it makes you uncomfortable, that’s okay, you don’t have to try it. I am just putting it here just in case you do want to try it or do find it helpful. Just to give a little explanation, though (I personally didn’t feel comfortable making the sign of the cross until after I understood why we do it): in Orthodoxy we make the sign of the cross whenever we begin or end a prayer and also whenever we say the name of the three persons of the Trinity, so for us it is really connected to prayer—it is prayer. Given that background, when we just make the sign of the cross by itself, it immediately creates a prayerful attitude and it is basically a wordless prayer, a way of calling to mind the presence of God and putting oneself in a prayerful mindset without using words. It’s also a reminder that we are under the power of the cross of Christ, that the cross has power, that as Christians we are united to him in his cross, death, and resurrection, and so on. The fact that it is a physical gesture is helpful because it involves the physical body in prayer so that prayer becomes something we do with our bodies, too, not just with our minds and spirits separated from our physicality.

5. Try getting up and doing something physical. For example, do something physical with your hands to keep them occupied, or take a walk, or maybe even just get up from where you are sitting and stretch for a moment to break away from those thoughts or create a mental reset. (Psychologically, when you get up and move a little bit and then sit back down it feels like you are getting a fresh start, not just continuing the same task, which can be helpful for getting a “reset” or “restart.”)

And these next two are things from Orthodox spirituality that I personally have found helpful for issues of lust and fantasizing:

1. The Jesus Prayer. It goes, “Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” There are other variations on it, mostly shorter ones, for example, you can shorten it to just “Lord, have mercy,” and the more you are struggling or in crisis, the better it is to use these very brief cries for help because of their immediacy and intensity (“arrow prayers” is a term I have heard used in Protestantism—when you are in spiritual crisis and you just cry out to God, “Lord, help!” or anything along those lines). Anyways, the Jesus prayer is said repetitively: you just say it over and over again. This is another way of calling to mind, and keeping continually in mind, the presence of mind. The idea is not that God is going to hear you better or listen to you more if you say the prayer more times; it’s the opposite, that you will hear God better and keep the presence of God better in mind if you say this prayer continually. This is the Eastern Orthodox solution to the biblical command “pray without ceasing” (1 Thess. 5:17). Again, just like what I was saying above about having the presence of God in mind, I find it a whole lot harder to continue fantasies that I know are bad if I am saying the Jesus prayer. Rather, I don’t fantasize when saying the Jesus Prayer. Fantasies are incompatible with it. And you can usually still do other things while mentally reciting the Jesus Prayer, depending on what it is that you are doing.

2. Fasting. Again, I don’t know what your denominational background is and whether you have had any experience with fasting or not—I know that Catholics have fasting and a lot of Protestants try various types of fasting (whether with or without some structure in the church community and following the church calendar depends on the denomination), so it is something sort of broadly applicable across Christianity but the form it takes varies widely based on what your denomination is. For us, on days when we fast we are basically vegan with a few differences; we don’t eat meat, fish, or dairy products. Anyways, it was very well-known and commonly recommended in the early church to use fasting as a way of fighting against lust, but some Protestant denominations have sort of forgotten this or are in the process of rediscovering it as if it is something new. Basically, if you allow yourself to be a little hungry, a little weak, a little bit tired, then you might find it easier to avoid lustful thoughts (thought it also depends on you to not seek out or spend time on things that provoke lust) because your body doesn’t have the energy to spare on sexuality. DO NOT take this to an extreme that ends up negatively affecting your ability to go to school and do your studies and everything that you need to do as usual; make sure you are still taking care of yourself. I would really not recommend fasting as in “not eating anything” but instead just refraining from certain foods (go vegetarian or vegan for a little while), cutting back on or refraining from kinds of entertainment that are not edifying to you (maybe start by turning your attention to a different anime that has more wholesome content rather than trying to cut anime out of your life), and spending more time in prayer. And if you are going to try fasting, please make sure to join it to things like works of mercy (volunteering or doing things to help people around you) and prayer. We have a saying that refraining from food without the other two, acts of mercy and prayer, is “the fasting of demons” because demons never eat but that doesn’t bring them closer to God.

All of the practical strategies above presuppose that you want to break away from lustful or fantasizing thought patterns. This can be hard and can often end up being a mental mind game because often when you are in the middle of those fantasies you don’t want to stop because you are enjoying them. (This is something my pastor pointed, out, but I can also corroborate because I’ve been in that place myself.) The best time to respond and redirect your thoughts is when they first enter your mind, before you start dwelling on them. Have you heard that psalm verse (it’s a pretty disturbing one taken literally) that goes, “Happy is the one who seizes your [the Babylonians’] infants and dashes them against the rocks” (Psalm 137:9)? The leaders of the early church interpreted the Bible allegorically a whole lot more than we do nowadays, and they teach that we should interpret this verse as referring to those sinful thoughts, lust being a prime example, that enter our minds just as stray thoughts at first but then grow bigger and bigger the more that we look at (think about) them. The person who seizes that thought right away when it first enters the mind and dashes it against the rocks, metaphorically speaking, is blessed. These things take root in our minds and grow, and like plants they are easiest to uproot and destroy when they are small. So as much as possible, try to do that mental redirection right away. If you find that you don’t want to get rid of your lustful thoughts or your fantasizing, then try going back to thinking about the questions of whether those fantasies do you any good and to the fact that they don’t do you good but are actually a bit harmful. This is not about “I’m sinning and I deserve to be punished” but about God desiring your healing and your salvation and for you to be able to live in a way that has all the richness and fullness and goodness of life as it was meant to be lived.

I wish you the best in your journey as you learn to try to navigate these kinds of issues. To quote Angela Aki (J-pop singer), “The stormy sea of adolescence is harsh, but keep moving forward to the shore of tomorrow!”

So you guys are saying, that as long as It's not interfering with my daily life, I should tone down the series and this is the human qualities of the "demon" that I am attracted to? So everything's okay now?
If you haven't already seen this, heres a all you need to know of the character in question -
http://kuroshitsuji.wikia.com/wiki/Sebastian_Michaelis